Hacker News Reader

Comment by NoGravitas | Hacker News Reader

> It is commonly assumed that the debate over what Swartz did, and, more generally, the debate over whether information does or does not want to be free, is between hacker culture and copyright culture, young people and old people, but this is not true. On the Hacker News site in the fall of 2012, many commenters disagreed with what he’d done, and argued with his supporters on the site that in a nation ruled by laws it was not O.K. for one person to just go and break a law he felt was unjust.

Or, possibly, Hacker News doesn't represent hacker culture, but finance-adjacent right-wing techbro culture, which knows perfectly well which side of the copyright issue its bread is buttered on.

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VC funded and controlled "hackers".

The articles take is the on point one IMO. The quotes are about the action being wrong not the law being right, as were the vast majority of the other negative comments in the post. The post can be found here for reference https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484 of particular note is the number of hackers that feel the action was noble but still wrong (even if being over prosecuted).

> Or, possibly, Hacker News doesn't represent hacker culture, but finance-adjacent right-wing techbro culture, which knows perfectly well which side of the copyright issue its bread is buttered on.

Spot on. I like HN for certain topics, but it’s by no means representative of the Hacker culture. Even the name seems like duplicitous marketing at best.

As an example, the topic of immigration will bring out the nastiest takes and opinions (and straight up racism).

Actually the opposite is true here; if you talk about certain data which is considered "bad", like crime statistics, your post will be shadowbanned because it's considered wrongthink (or as you might put it, "straight up racism"), just like Twitter.

> if you talk about certain data which is considered "bad", like crime statistics, your post will be shadowbanned

Utter nonsense. Seriously. This is pure claptrap. I've seen so many instances where posters here have brought up "crime statistics" in the context of race or claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes, and none where such posts were "shadowbanned".

> claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes

Now I'm wondering, does SF count as a "left-leaning city"? Sure, it's a single datapoint but still.

Arguably, but I think it's the claim that SF is an "unlivable crime-ridden hellhole" that they would take issue with.

In the context of those conversations, there's a lot of implied "therefore you should vote republican", if it's not out right stated.

I challenge you to show me a case where mere presentation of statistics led to a ban, shadow or otherwise.

More likely the "raising of a statistic" was accompanied by a first-order explanation of the number that, besides being trite and lazy, was also "blatantly racist". But it wasn't the statistic that did the job.

"As an example, the topic of immigration will bring out the nastiest takes and opinions (and straight up racism)."

Well, I would argue, that hackers can also be nasty racists.

I mean sure, by my definition the hacker spirit is open minded by definition. But people with a open mind, are also open for some very weird to disgusting ideas.

Interesting, is the point here that hackers are susceptible to any idea that’s not mainstream?

However racism doesn’t fit that category does it? Racism is a mainstream idea and not a novel one.

Depends on where you live. It's not mainstream in the big tech cities. It's not mainstream on the American internet. "Racism" is also arguably not mainstream in most American cities, though there are plenty of accusations that certain areas are still indirectly or implicitly racist because it's a very subjective term.

Racism is expressed by systems that benefit some to the exclusion or detriment of others, based on race.

Remind me, what are the "mainstream" demographics of big tech companies?

Tech companies are famous for externalizing their problems into their local communities. How is that expressed in terms of race?

Capitalism simply doesn't work without an underclass. Capitalism exploits labor the most efficiently with a divided underclass, because class awareness and solidarity undermines capitalism. As such capitalism is invariably paired with racism. Every capitalist economy is built on some form of bigotry.

Open minded to anything.

And then use critical analysis to hack the concept apart and see, if it is solid or not.

I for example, see the common racism concept as not solid for lots of reasons. But I am open to listen to arguments from the other side in general.

(but not here and now)

A long time ago now, the word "hacker" was captured by regular programmers screwing around who wanted to sound cool. I doubt anyone is confused about which definition HN is concerned with.

are you saying HN is NOT populated by regular programmers screwing around who want to sound cool?

Why assume that "hacker culture", whatever exactly that is, is immune to racism?

From the Hacker Manifesto:

"We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals."

"My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like."

I wouldn't argue that "hacker culture" is necessarily a monoculture or immune to racism, but I feel that this disembodied ethic is core to the origins of the culture.

I would say, it is a hacker manifesto, not the.

Just like this is a hacker news site and not the exclusive one. And all in all, despite the ads and some other things, like intransparent moderation at times, I think they cultivate a quite good hacker spirit here. Otherwise we wouldn't be visiting.

Maybe it isn’t. My understanding of Hacker ethos has been that of a curiosity driven by truth seeking of any system (not just technological). Racism seems like lazy conventional thinking, so it seems prima facie to be incoherent with that culture.

>Hacker News doesn't represent hacker culture, but finance-adjacent right-wing techbro culture,

I disagree. Every time I criticize the (auth) left I get buried in downvotes. Big tech and a lot of HN seems to be vehemently left wing.

Let's see if they do it to this comment too.

Try posting any article about racism or misogyny in Silicon Valley. It'll be flagged faster than you can say "Cancel Culture" five times.

Speaking of "cancel culture": HN is the only community where it tends to be almost accepted truth that Cloudflare or Youtube or Telegram doing anything to stop the vilest hate groups from using their platforms is tantamount to the end of democracy.

Do you know who ran Theranos? Do you know who ran Enron? Why not? Yes, there's a difference of a few years. I bet a text analysis would also show the female CEO being mentioned in connection with the demise of their company than the men do. See also: Ellen Pao.

HN went all-in on 'Gamergate'. For a brief time, it certainly did toy with the whole QAnon bullshit, although that went so crazy so fast, it couldn't take hold, thankfully.

It's more populism than right-wing canon these days, but this very thread has a few examples of mindless theorizing about the New Yorker picking its subjects with corrupt intentions. It is beyond me how someone would read this article and consider it a "hit piece", or anything a campaign or the CIA would want to see published. If the military-security-complex wants to change your thinking, they fly F-15 over football stadiums, not get the New England intelligentsia to put out 5,000 word essays sublimely sneaking in their ideas.

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