And Hong Kong is also not exactly a noble history of a population determined to live free, but the result of a 100-year imposed lease of a whole area (as if it was some property) by a colonial power who deemed it a valuable port. Now, in 2022 most/many HKers want to be indepedent of RPC, but if it wasn't for that shady colonial past, Hong Kong would be part of China today, no?
This is more-or-less how Germany looked like in the 1930s. Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels.
And if it stayed at that, it wouldn't be much different that most other countries at the time - perhaps even less lethal (due to not having colonies) and more progressive than some (the early program was New Deal style, and the talk against Jews was toned-down until later in the 30s).
And China itself looked much worse (and worse much more repressive for its citizens) in the 60s up to the 90s, so there's that. Whereas Germany went the other way: more repressive, more bloody, less wellbeing for the people (as resources started going to millitary preparations), and finally war and devastation.
>Really scary that some people don't realise the parallels.
Godwin's law much?
If you are talking about the rise of both the authoritarian left and right, then you have a point. Germany (and Italy) were the large nations that were swept up in this populist wave, and that is what is being reflected in the political zeitgist in China today.
>Godwin's law much?
It's kinda of a meme to invoke it. But AFAIK, it doesn't apply to serious (i.e. no lighthearted) political discussion.
Like China Germany just went through a break-neck pace industrialization to the point where it became a major competitor to the other great powers. It even had its own 'century of humiliation' in the 17th century starting with the Thirty Years' War. There was a lot of nationalism and ressentiment in Germany towards France and UK at the time and I do feel similar things are going on in China today.
And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
Yeah, so? Many countries "fixed that" - the New Deal fixed that for the starving Americans for example. Post-war German government "fixed that" for starving post-WWII Germans.
Fixing poverty doesn't imply worth authoritarianism.
Especially since China went to more open from the 60s to 2020, not less, so the opposite direction.
>And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
They're somewhat like the famines caused by the British imperial policy in India, but in this case due to bad policy, not intentional colonial profiteering.
And, Chinese policy and results went to the other direction, not just eliminating those famines, but raising a population 2 times the US into middle class, and raising more from proverty.
It sure seems like a reach to say that China in the 2020s is like Germany in the 1930s because Chinese were starving in the 1960s (and, to lesser extents, the 1970s and 1980s) and Germans were starving in the 1920s. Wouldn't it follow that China in the 1970s (or 1980s or 1990s) is analogous to Germany in 1930s? Oh wait, of course not, because it's an absurd analogy in the first place.
> And since we're talking about people starving, why don't we talk about the Great Leap forward and the massive famines caused by CCP policy?
Sure, but I'm not sure what there is to say about it as I don't think anyone is going to argue that the Great Leap Forward was sensible policy or that famine is a good thing...
You even seem to deny that today's CCP is the same CCP as the one that cause the Great Leap Forward. In many ways, the CCP of today is more like the CCP of the 50s than the 90s.
Ordinarily, this would subside in later generations, but my fear is that western jingoism and igorance about China is delaying or even reversing this process. There is a recent research paper which presents data showing Chinese international students were less likely to adopt liberal positions when confronted with anti-China attitudes. This matches my anecdotal experiences where people proselytizing the superiority of western systems of government (and/or the evils of the Chinese one) get basic facts wrong and completely alienate their targets.
- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years.
- Huge cities with incredible culture and history.
- Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged.
- Despite all the saber rattling with neighbors Taiwan, Japan, and India, and quarterly tank parades, not involved in hot wars since a misguided invasion of Vietnam in the 80s. Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones.
- COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines.
- Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here
- The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea.
>- Standard of living has increased incomprehensibly over the last 40 years.
So did in Taiwan, SK, Japan, Hong Kong, Sinagpore, etc. in the 50s-90s. China is actually behind, and was slow to develop because of the mess that the revolution caused.
>- Safe to walk around at night. Imagine walking around downtown NYC or LA at 3am without feeling like you're gonna get mugged.
As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same.
Unfortunately, that's not the case in HK anymore, especially if you look young, as you'll probably be treated as an insurgent by the police.
>Belt & Road might have some predatory loans but they're better than Predator drones.
Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse.
You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam.
>- COVID has been well-controlled. Wuhan escape was inevitable, just look at how fast variants have spread even with (initially) 70-90% effective vaccines.
Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2.
>- Hong Kong Colony was leased to Britain under duress and returned by mutual and legal agreement; there is no independence argument here
This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland.
>- The last invasion of Taiwan was by the KMT when they fled there in 1949. Today's military provocation consists of flying some jets into an ADIZ (50% of which actually covers Fujian province in China) or shooting some ordnance into the sea.
What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China?
I'm certainly not a Great Leap Forward apologist, but Deng salvaging the mess in the 80s-90s and the subsequent development is a great achievement.
> As above, the authoritarianism didn't cause this. Walk around 3am at night in any city in Japan, SK or Taiwan, it is the same.
I'm just citing Good Things about China since the parent seemed to be convinced there weren't any. Not making a value judgement on how it was achieved.
> Since we're playing et tu now, how about all the bases in the South China Seas and the border skirmishes with India? By all indications, if the US was not the world police, then China's (or Russia's) response, judging by their recent actions, would have been even worse. You also failed to mention China's role in the Korean war, in addition to Vietnam.
Some border skirmishes vs an uninterrupted history of global hot, cold, and proxy wars since WWII, you tell me which is more significant?
> Hard to see COVID as a defence for China given that most of the world is still ticked off that China covered everything up, twice, leading to pandemic both times. It's surprising that they didn't learn the mistakes of SARS, and here we are with SARS-2.
The gene sequence was released on this day (1/11) in 2020. There had been 41 cases and one death at that point. Look at the American virus response and tell me if any city would've locked down at that point. There was no coverup, it's simply an incredibly contagious virus.
> This really betrays your sympathies. You don't even consider that what the people of Hong Kong desires and their right to self-determination. Hong Kong is more than just a few islands and a bit of land hanging off of the mainland.
We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't think the majority of Hong Kongers wants to secede from the mainland, even in a magical world where they wouldn't have to fight an independence war and subsequent complete economic/diplomatic isolation to get it.
> What is even your point here? Are you trying to say that it's actually Taiwan provoking China?
I'm saying that it's dumb to treat flying into a corner of a giant rectangle that's mostly not covering your own land as some major provocation
You could have mentioned the CCP attacking and attempted invasion of Taiwan in 1954 and 1958.