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Are Customer Satisfaction Engineers really engineers? Are software architects really architects? Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor?

Edit: apparently that should have been “Is a MD a real doctor?” TIL :D

The only reason this dumb question refuses to die is that software developers can actually borrow and apply approaches from “real” engineering. The difference is that “we” do not have to, either to be successful, or to be in compliance with any regulation or cultural expectation (with exceptions).

I’m also generally annoyed by the retroactive continuity of it all. “Software Engineer” started as a job title chosen by HR on a per-company, not industry-wide, basis, and not as a flavor of Professional Engineering. We’re probably closer to that aspiration now (unevenly distributed) but it still stinks of post hoc justification.

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>Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor

Nitpick, but yes, actually "doctor" comes from the latin "to teach" and originally refers to doctor of philosophy, and has been co-opted for MDs. The real question is "are mds (who dont teach) real doctors?"

That's interesting. Though, I'm not a fan of the notion that I'm no longer a Dr. after leaving academia post PhD. But, that's just my emotional take, and doesn't counter your origination history.

> I'm no longer a Dr. after leaving academia post PhD

"Does a PhD thesis have to be novel?" - I don't care how you slice that answer, even if you were confirming/revisiting existing studies. If you have a PhD, you contributed to human knowledge in either the master or PhD theses, imo.

Hey, I did my PhD more than 10 years ago, and I've taught more in my time in industry than what I could have taught in academia.

> The real question is "are mds (who dont teach) real doctors?

This makes my day!

I hadn't noticed the weird parallel where Japan also uses one word, "sensei" in their case, for both teacher and medical doctor.

To add to this, you'll see different degrees for research vs. professional practice doctorates in various fields.

For example, you can get a Ph.D. in psychology, or a Psy.D. in psychology. Generally speaking, Ph.D. is for psychology researchers and Psy.D. is for professional psychologists. Similarly in law, a J.D. is often part of the process of becoming a lawyer, and a J.S.D. is for someone who wants to do research.

actually "doctor" comes from the latin "to teach"

There's only one robust doctor test and it doesn't involve etymology. If someone else's mother refers to you as such, then you're a doctor.

I would argue that physicians are actually engineers. They are applying medical sciences.

Just like software engineering is the application of computer science.

It’s the truest definition I’ve been able to think of.

Physicians are repair techs for humans

Engineers design and create, physicians fix problems and do maintenance.

You can become a chartered engineer with a background in software engineering so it is a 'real flavor' of Professional Engineering. I'm studying for the CSQE which is a Certification on Software Quality Engineering from the same body that awards regular quality engineering certificates and I've been pretty surprised/happy with the focus it has on processes that allow for reproducible quality, metrics to monitor software improvements, and its general depth on testing as a whole (for example state machine, property, and model-based testing).

Do you have any good links about this please?

It's interesting how the traditional standards bodies are adapting to the new tech.

They might be referring to the American Society of Quality: https://asq.org/cert/software-quality-engineer

It's not equivalent to a software engineer in Canada: https://www.egbc.ca/Registration/Individual-Registrants/How-...

This may be different in other countries.

I worked in manufacturing and there were P.Eng. holding mechanical and industrial engineers that held ASQ certifications on top of but not as substitutes for their P.Eng.

> Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor?

‘Doctor’ means someone who’s learned enough to teach. Many physicians calling themselves doctor don’t actually have any kind of doctorate at all and only get the title as a curtesy due to their own profession’s historical fears of lacking one.

Interestingly, in Brazil practicing lawyers who passed the bar exam are also called "doctors" due to an Imperial decree from 1825, that was also a courtesy to them from the then Emperor.

When you go to the doctors, the title "doctor" is a "customary title". They don't hold doctorates.

You'll notice that surgeons are usually called "mister".

Perhaps it stems from how the two professions arose. In ye olden days, a lot of surgery was performed by barbers.

So when people ask if someone is a "real" doctor, their actual understanding is the wrong way around. In their minds, the words "Philosophy" in PhD somehow means they aren't proper doctors.

Note that there are also higher doctorates, such as DSc (doctor of science, which will be specifically scientific), DD (doctor of divinity), etc.. I don't think I've ever met someone with a higher doctorate, though.

> You'll notice that surgeons are usually called "mister".

Will I? So far I haven't...

(I'm in the US, though, and from your comment history I think you might be in the UK? Does it differ between countries?)

In the UK fully qualified doctors are called 'mr' or 'ms' - only baby doctors are called 'doctor'.

Yes, I'm from UK.

> Is a Doctor of Philosophy a real doctor?

Actually, a Doctor of Philosophy is the only real doctor.

Well also Doctor of Engineering etc.

That's a PhD (in engineering).

Non-phd doctorates I'm aware of would be MD, Psy. D, JD.

No it's an EngD. Maybe it's a Commonwealth thing.

They exist in the US too. There ain't nothin' wrong with an EngD, it's a great terminal degree. But the Doctor of Engineering is not a doctor in the sense being discussed here. Why? Because the definition of a doctor is (or was) someone with a license to teach at an institution of higher learning. That's not the aim of an EngD, at least in the US and many other places: its goal is explicitly to produce an engineer who will use his knowledge in the real world.

The same thing goes for EdD, DPA, etc. These are professional degrees, not teaching/research degrees.

Indeed. Real engineering is mostly defined by regulatory rules. Crappy bridges and unsafe factories existed before the government regulated it.

The Doctor of Philosophy is a somewhat unlucky example, since this really goes back to the original trivium. Medicine, on the other hand, is an applied science (so, strictly speaking, if you're not bound to teaching…).

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