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Comment by lettergram | Hacker News Reader

What’s the primary export of the United States?

> Are you all really here in 2022, being like "we can't risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?" Are actual scientists concerned? Or just the state, and apparently most of the fellow commenters?

It’s intellectual property. The majority of the worlds cutting edge research are designed, developed, tested, and eventually marketed in the United States. That’s the advantage of free markets and gives the US first mover advantage.

Yes, it’s exceedingly important that is maintained (to the United States). If that stops occurring... manufacturing is gone, mining and energy sectors are regulated to oblivion. There’s not much left. Food and services? Healthcare? None of those produce enough wealth to maintain the nation, only information and advanced / advancing technology can support US growth.

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The majority, really? TSMC's fabs are in Taiwan, using ASML machines from the Netherlands. Much of their chips run ARM, from Cambridge. As I look at my tabs, I see Google Maps (invented by an Australian in Sydney), and Spotify (from Sweden).

The world is far, far, bigger than the USA; and as an Australian, I'd say it's extremely pretentious or naive to think the US has a 'majority' of cutting edge tech.

ASML tech leveraged investments made over the decades by US national labs and consortiums like EUV-LLC as well as by companies like Cymer (DUV) which they acquired. IIRC, Part of the reason the US can forbid ASML selling EUV machines to China is they are covered by some patents held by US DOE/NIST.

For sure, ASML did the “final mile” in perfecting EUV and making it work in a production environment vs the prototypes in the labs 20 years ago, but I don’t think the funding that the US government and consortium members dumped on decades of research should be swept under the rug.

The parent does have a point, a common argument for pharmaceuticals is that governments and universities fund, or participate in funding, everything except the ‘last mile’ of drug development, i.e. human clinical trials. So a naive reader may assume they were primarily responsible but in fact it is the ‘last mile’ that consumes the vast majority of resources. Although the breakdown may not be clear in the case of EUV, it is possible that the vast majority of effort was getting across that ‘last mile’ of development, and thus a primarily non-US effort.

Okay, but that's just ignoring that ASML's largest design center is in NY just a few tens of miles from NYC and White Plains. Why is it there? Global Foundries (former IBM and AMD) is nearby and that was where the research was happening. Their second largest design center is in Norway, so not even in the EU. But sure, they're a Dutch company that does most of its design work outside of the Netherlands.

In terms of research, well the USA is still leading in total number of dollars, researchers, labs, and light sources dedicated to semiconductor research. Heck, we have three of the world's most advanced accelerators (Fermi Lab, Argonne National Labs, and SLAC) that are critical to semiconductor device research and were where most of the EUV breakthroughs were made.

In terms of total effort for EUV, yeah most probably wasn't in the USA. But if I had to hazard a guess, probably 50-60% of the research and development of EUV was done in the USA, Canada, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea. So essentially countries firmly within our sphere of influence with the rest occurring in Europe (not the EU, the continent), the People's Republic of China, India, etc. And as we're moving forward, TSMC's stated reason for putting their most advanced fabs in the USA going forward is because they want faster and easier access to where the research is occurring at the bleeding edge of the research without the problem of the time gap that delays and impedes communication due to sleep schedules.

The integrated circuit was invented in the U.S., and the semiconductor industry was pioneered in the U.S.

Op said that the U.S. pioneers and develops technology, giving a first mover advantage. Yes, eventually other countries catch up and start innovating on their own, but the point that the U.S. is generally the pioneer stands.

The IC was invented over 60 years ago. That's human 2-3 generations.

Google Maps and Spotify are not cutting edge tech.

>That’s the advantage of free markets

The large amounts of research done for and funded by the US government helps a lot too as do the various methods to give R&D tax advantages.

The IP of how to do things (patents) is made up and detrimental to society. Other IP such as brand names is reasonable, we don't want people saying they're selling us Coca-Cola if it isn't from that particular manufacturer.

If there are ways to make stuff, everyone should be allowed to try, because it's in setting up the complex web of inputs and bringing the product to market that people benefit.

The advantage of free markets isn't that it allows the US to make IP, it's that it lets various people have a go at supplying something that people want.

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