Comment by popcorncowboy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by popcorncowboy | Hacker News Reader

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Not that you're wrong about anything that you've said, but your implication (and that of the blockchain punditry) is that somehow crypto is the solution here, without ever exaplaining "how".

The idea that crypto is "out of reach" of governments, regulators, law and oppressive regimes is one of the fairy tales that crypto pundits believe that is simply not true.

In a country that is unbanked and financially oppressed, even if you were loaded with BTC, and even if all your suppliers of food, housing, energy, clothing, schooling etc were somehow setup to transact in BTC, no-one explains how they'll just "bypass" the financial system, tax system, government regulators or the people with guns. There is a naive certainty that people can "sidestep" the formal system and no-one will ever come knocking. In unbanked, oppressed countries? This fairy tale that the "system" will just keep working but the "nasty government" will throw its hands up and go "YOLO BTC what are you gonna do lol carry on everyone". Please. It's the easiest thing in the world to pass laws outlawing this stuff, and then lean on infrastructure, network providers, suppliers, etc etc..

Nevermind the transaction fees that make this untenable anyway. Perhaps the poor oppressed can just write everything down on paper to settle accounts at the end of the month/quarter/year/never and dodge tx fees. Of course, L2 networks, problem solved.

Anyway. I suppose BTC growth has to come from somewhere. So why not exploit the global south further under the aegis of yet another colonial missionary expedition to save them from themselves. This may make life worse in the end for the savages but hey, a bunch of us will get richer.

Real-world situations aren’t binary. They don’t just automatically go to the extreme edge case. It’s a common mistake of programmers whose brains are trained to think that way (mine included!)

So when the government is bad people who have guns, it might be tempting to think “There is no mitigation for this because they have guns! They can just exert infinite leverage at any point to squelch any mitigation to their corruption!”

But reality is there are only so many bad guys with guns and they can’t be everywhere all the time. Every additional tool people have to circumvent corruption helps.

Can they access the internet and read content from free countries? Educate themselves? It helps. Even if it invites persecution, it helps.

Can they access some way of storing value their corrupt leaders can’t just steal or print away? It helps. Sure someone can come to the door with a gun and demand your wallet key, but until then, it helps.

Using cryptocurrency to avoid financial oppression is only really viable when it's obscure. If a small number of people are using a crypto black market, it isn't really worth the effort for a government to try and shut it down. The more popular it becomes, the bigger the target, and the more likely it will be shut down.

An obscure cryptocurrency black market is the only one that can really exist for any length of time. However, an obscure crypto ecosystem is also one that is difficult to actually use. It doesn't matter how much Bitcoin you've hidden from the government, if you can't actually spend it on anything.

It's the cost of enforcement, both politically and financially, that decides this, not much else.

looks like that until you can instantly pay by winking to each other at 0 fees for 100% of your use cases on a proof-of-orphans-being-adopted or proof-of-cancer-being-cured blockchain, crypto deniers won't be satisfied.

the system doesn't have to be perfect and you don't have to be 100% invested for it to work, you can still be helped by crypto in a financially oppressed country even if you don't use it for everyday transactions, even if you don't use for all your money, even if you use it once per year.

like any other options, you use the best one for each situation, and crypto fills a huge gap here, fees included.

> no-one explains how they'll just "bypass" the financial system, tax system, government regulators or the people with guns

Here's one explanation - when the people with guns realize they are paid in a fiat currency that their bosses keep inflating for their own benefit, what do you think they will do?

Another - who will the people with guns shoot at when they can't identify an anonymous crypto wallet?

> when the people with guns realize they are paid in a fiat currency that their bosses keep inflating for their own benefit, what do you think they will do?

Same thing that happens in Venezuela. You pay your army in real assets and hard currency.

> who will the people with guns shoot at when they can't identify an anonymous crypto wallet?

Which is a false assumption, given recent history.

> Same thing that happens in Venezuela. You pay your army in real assets and hard currency.

Venezuela proves my point - it's a borderline failed state where the government is very, very fragile.

> Which is a false assumption, given recent history.

You may be referring to the Colonial Pipeline hackers. When hackers implement strong crypto opsec, it is impossible to catch them.[1] Dumb and careless criminals get caught all the time, there are a lot more that don't.

[1] Use wasabi or samourai for coinjoins. Run a full node. Use a wallet with coin control and labelling. Buy from Bisq. Or use Monero.

> hackers implement strong crypto opsec, it is impossible to catch them

Take out the word "crypto" and this statement is equally true. Law enforcement probably won't catch a criminal with good opsec whether they're using cash or Bitcoin or bags of cocaine.

> Nevermind the transaction fees that make this untenable anyway. ... Of course, L2 networks, problem solved.

We've already agreed on our dominant L1s.

What happens when we've agreed on our dominant L2(s)?

Say, with the UX help of a large corporate entity with financial interest in actually helping their consumer remain financially secure?

> no-one explains how they'll just "bypass" the financial system

The concept you seem to be reaching for is "black market".

Gateway to which can be a 10bps modem and/or a school calculator Bitcoin wallet...

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