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Blind auditions only get rid of one aspect of discrimination. However, when the pipeline is starved because of too few role models in their communities due to historical prejudice, blind auditions become self-defeating and self-reinforcing. The top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability (equivalent to an Ivy League applicant pool being all straight-As), so maybe it's time to focus on other aspects like increasing diversity so that more kids have role models to look up to.

Of course, you would know all this if you read the article instead of using it as some kind of "gotcha" that minorities aren't up to snuff musically.

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I think you're displaying an unconscious bias here by implying the 'top tier of musical talent is virtually identical in ability' and that this somehow excludes various groups from that pool. First, that claim is highly questionable, and second, you are implying that some groups are less talented than others based solely on their identity. This kind of bias is rather common, it's rather redolant of paternalistic attitudes towards 'naturally inferior groups' who need 'inclusive policies' because they just can't make the grade on their own.

If you happen to be unfamiliar with this argument, I'd recommend this: https://tarahenley.substack.com/p/bad-news

I don't think that's quite what he said.

I think he was saying that the top tier of current trained talent isn't equally diverse as the underlying population because of past biases in selection, and that making a blind selection from that pool likely perpetuates some of these biases. E.g. kids who grow up seeing symphonies that exclude people that look like them are less likely to pursue paths that lead toward them being in this pool.

I'm not arguing in favor of affirmative action or a purposeful selection bias to fix this. It's a messy problem but it deserves thought and consideration.

Not less talented, but certainly less able to spend time practicing(as a population) and without as many role models that look like them.

One sees this a lot, but why do you filter interest in subjects by how much the proponents look like you -- don't you find it really limiting? In practice, how does this work, do you get in to someone's thing and then think "hang on, they're not like me, better stop being inspired".

For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all.

Clearly inspiration must work entirely differently for you as you say physical similarity is vital. Can you explain that? Is it prejudice?

> For me inspiration comes from people, and when I think about whether they're similar to me mostly I find they're not at all.

And, if you're privileged-- society has given you the message you can do whatever you want-- that's OK.

If you're in a system with racism embedded into various parts-- one rationally wonders: is there no one like me up there because there's racism filtering it? Is someone at a music school, competition, or academy, somewhere along the way going to decide that I don't really look like someone who's a top-tier violinist and going to exclude me (based on this same logic, in part)? If so, it might be better to select myself out before dedicating a whole lot of resources.

We’re not talking about being inspired. We’re talking about things like access to resources, time to spend learning and practicing, and the availability of people who can mentor you.

There needs to be more focus on improving the inputs to the pipeline. But that could take generations, and people are looking for quick fixes right now.

After reading the article you make still less sense.

The article says that blind auditions dramatically increased the proportion of women players. It does not explain why this effect wouldn't apply to other "under-represented" groups.

Clearly some applicants are _not_ "virtually identical in ability" with other applicants.

Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital and how it relates to white privilege.

See, the parents of white (and Asian) kids have, or can buy, access to social networks that underrepresented groups (particularly black and indigenous) are systematically excluded from. That gets the white and Asian kids into better music schools and affords them more opportunities to get good enough to audition to major orchestras, as well as exposure within the classical-music world so people know who they are. This has the effect of reinforcing a certain racial profile for classical musicians.

The solution to this problem has been known since the initial civil rights movement in the USA at least: affirmative action. Unfortunately that means denying really talented white and Asian musicians orchestra seats, so that talented people of other communities have a shot at the levels of achievement and recognition whites have taken for granted. But ultimately, it's for the greater good.

> Let me introduce you to the concept of social capital and how it relates to white privilege.

It is amazing how progressives assume the problem is the ignorance and stupidity of their opponents.

But, it is good to get the real argument out in the open.

Do you think there will be a push for affirmative action to increase the number of male students at colleges and universities?

I think we all know the answer.

There might be a push, but its success is doubtful. Too many entrenched interests and theories that back them (glass ceiling, gender gap) would be threatened by such development.

The only thing that could actually move the needle is the fact that with a highly skewed sex ratio on campus, female students will find their dating experience unsatisfactory. People place high premium on finding a suitable mate.

Huh? It's already happening. It's not labeled AA, but admissions officers do it anyway because women don't want to attend universities where they are a significant majority.

How do you know it's social capital and not other factors influencing what schools the kids go to?

Aka, let me introduce you to why the Democrats are going to get pummeled in the upcoming midterms.

Tale old as time - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/white-back...

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