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Comment by trickjarrett | Hacker News Reader

While I understand Jobs' anger, I also can't help but remember how the Mouse was "stolen" from Xerox and other such tales in Apple's history. It comes across as "it's okay when I do it but not when Google does."

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I have seen this banded about the internet too much of late and it's about time it stopped, I mean it's not as if the information is out there, is it? The mouse wasn't invented by Xerox. The concept was invented by Doug Engelbart of SRI in the 1960's and first demoed in 1968 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIgzSoTMOs). The GUI was around as a concept before PARC existed. Ivan Sutherland is credited as creating the first working GUI with Sketchpad in, released in 1963 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOZqRJzE8xg). You'll notice that the interface ideas found in the Alto and later systems (Star?) by PARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alto_Neptune_Filemanager.g...) were influenced by those of Engelbart in his demo, or to use your language, "stolen". If you look back further, you'll come across Vannevar Bush, who outlined the majority of what went on to become modern computing in an essay about a conceptual system called 'Memex' in 1945, so I guess using your language, everyone 'stole' from him.

As a footnote, Xerox/PARC were remunerated fairly by Apple with 1 million pre-IPO shares, valued at around $7/share which Xerox later sold for $16 million (~$45 million today).

Finally, making criticisms like that is fine, but at least get the meme right. Apple were said to have "stolen" the GUI concept that Xerox apparently "invented".

The point is Apple is a great marketer. The extent to which they are an innovator, on the other hand, is often exaggerated.

I know what the point is, but I'd say that the extent to which their innovations are understated borders on the ridiculous. The only people I ever see really overstating Apple's contributions are those that are refuting the fact.

<rant>We live in amazing times technologically, with amazing gadgets that I could only dreamed of when I was a kid, yet many commenters, with little of their own to crow about, have what can only be described as entitlement issues. The problem seems to be that Apple are now a success, perceived to be abusive by a very small bout incredibly vocal minority and individuals feel the need to knock 'em down a peg or two. Yes, some of their contributions, like many other businesses are overstated (Google didn't invent search and neither did they release Android out of altruism for instance); however the extent that some go to to discredit one of the most influential tech businesses of the last 50 years is churlish.</rant>

Apple has never been credited with anything in the first place, so there is nothing to discredit. Even at their very foundation, Apple stole innovations from the workers at Xerox PARC, and then they went on to perpetuate DRM malfeatures and intellectual property / artificial scarcity, through iTunes, the appstore, etc. For more information see this link:

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=316

The difference that Apple has with Google is fundamental. Apple distributes artificially stupid malware and Google distributes free software and intelligent cloud services. In this context, I will take Google and Android over Apple and iOS any day.

"Even at their very foundation, Apple stole innovations from the workers at Xerox PARC" You betray you ignorance with that line alone. The workers at Xerox PARC stole those same ideas from people like Engelbart and Sutherland, at the very least Apple paid for them. They also employed a few PARC alumni too.

For the final time Xerox did not invent the UI _or_ even WIMP, they were contributors; just like Apple and Microsoft are.

As for your unbelievably asinine remark; Google distributes "free software and intelligent cloud services". I'm not one for name calling generally, but how that could be construed for anything other the blind fandroid nonsense is beyond me. You are under the mis apprehension that Google act out of altruism. They don't. The offer their services for free for the purpose of gathering data about you to sell to the highest bidder. The rest of us know that AAPL, MSFT and GOOG are not the paragons of virtue that you clearly seem to think that they are, but some of the absolute bullshit that is being present as fact (like the opinion piece that you link to) is verging on stupefying. The facts are out there. Here is a head start,http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~saul/wiki/uploads/HCIPapers/h..., now go and learn something about the industry you work in.

Dear sbuk,

After the cold war, the military cut off most of its funding to AI research, resulting in the AI winter. Without that source of funding, we have to look for the next best source, which is big corporations. Google is one of the best examples of such a corporation because they deliver AI services to billions of users every day.

Now is google a "paragon of virtue"? Hell no, nor is any institution in capitalism for that matter, however, we should still recognise _allies of virtue_ and in a way I would say that Google is one such example, not only through their support of AI but also through their support of software freedom.

For example, the Android project, lead by Google is an essential part of the free software movement and really the good option on mobile devices. And well Anrdoid 3.0 isn't entirely free, Replicant largely fixes that, and Anrdoid 4.0 largely resolves any of these issues. Apple iOS, on the other hand, isn't even comparable, because it is full of DRM malfeatures.

The workers at Xerox PARC stole those same ideas from people like Engelbart and Sutherland, at the very least Apple paid for them.

The workers at Xerox PARC never "stole" anything, they hired lots of people from the nearby SRI organisation which first released most of the features of the GUI during the mother of all demos.

just like Apple and Microsoft are.

Before, Microsoft and Apple, the GUI was essentially the exclusive business of a few private individuals, and the "contribution" of Microsoft and Apple was to make it into a tool of screwing over millions of people. The thing they "contributed" to is their bank account, not technology.

The offer their services for free for the purpose of gathering data about you to sell to the highest bidder.

Then don't provide Google's services with data you don't want them to have. That's pretty simple. At least Google isn't selling stupid DRM ridden devices like Apple is.

like the opinion piece that you link to

What is your objection to that piece?

The mouse was invented by Doug Engelbart and 'stolen' by Xerox and then 'stolen' by Apple. Apple's mouse was well designed, compact, cheap, reliable, very dependable and consistent in its function. None of this was true of the two previous mice.

This is the difference when Apple 'steals'. They are inspired by something poorly executed and create something much better than the inspiration.

According to Wikipedia, the first mouse was developed by Douglas Engelbart at the Stanford Research Institute in 1963. Regardless, Xerox was paid in pre-IPO Apple stock, so I don't understand why people try to say Apple stole anything from Xerox.

IIRC, Xerox were paid in exchange for engineer visits on the understanding that Apple would produce some form of GUI. Xerox were sufficiently aggrieved with the result to file a lawsuit against Apple, who were trying to do the same thing to Microsoft at the time. I don't think the Xerox/Apple arrangement is as straightforward as many make out.

> "stolen"

There has been no invention in the history of mankind that was not produced without learning from the past work of others.

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