Comment by kazinator | Hacker News Reader

Comment by kazinator | Hacker News Reader

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Unfortunately, these maps remove all intuitions about where the heck you are, especially if you're a tourist.

The more scope is included in the map, the less comprehensible it becomes, as the layout bears no relation to how the places relate, like how relatively far away they are and in what direction.

Topological maps conceal truths like you might be able to walk faster between these two particular stations than if you take the train.

If all you have is a real map that doesn't have transit details, and a schematic transit map, it can be hard to have a complete picture.

Some middle representation is helpful: a caricature of the metropolitan area with the transit grid and stations shown at least loosely in the right places.

This article shows two maps of the NY subway system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway_map

The one on the left is like what I'm talking about. The one on the right is more detailed. Both are better than a purely topological diagram with no relation to the places.

In contrast to something like this:

https://www.tokyometro.jp/en/subwaymap/

In both the NY maps, if you find the station where you're dcurrently located, you actually know from either map where in NY you are, and about how far it is to other places.

All good points. Sadly, there is no perfect solution. Which ever way you draw the map you are making a compromise.

The London map is by far the easiest I have ever encountered for figuring out how to get from station A to station B. On the other hand, as you say, there are sections where the distance is radically deceptive.

With the maps that show the stations in their real locations, they are much harder to read, but you get a sense of distance.

My personal preference is for the London style, because by the time I get on the train I generally don't care how long it takes, I just want to settle back and get where I'm going. Hopefully most tourists to London will get the message beforehand, through guides or advice, that nearly every tourist destination is easily walkable for able-bodied persons.

Pedestrian walking signage on the streets of London is pretty good as well.

One of the challenges with "real locations" is differences in scale. In the case of Boston for example, a bunch of lines come together in a rather dense area of downtown. But then a number of lines (even excluding commuter rail) head off to terra incognito--OK, I exaggerate but into the suburbs or even small cities outside Boston.

Scale is one of the main reasons Harry Beck's map worked. Central London on an accurate map isn't that confusingly laid out at a large enough scale. But the outlying suburbs are just so far away, and the schematic is a lot less confusing for the intended purpose of getting the correct train connection than flipping back and forth between different maps and insets at different scale levels

Although (to my knowledge) a new version hasn't been produced since 2014, the London Connections map [0] does something along these lines.

It's primarily geographical, but isn't completely precise, and it retains some topological features.

I think most passengers would find it too confusing, but maybe there are ways it could be simplified.

See also the unofficial Carto Metro map [1], which is an actual geographic map of London's rail network. And also the map of key bus routes in Central London [2], which is largely topological but represents major parks and attractions.

[0] http://web.archive.org/web/20181222165456/http://content.tfl...

[1] https://cartometro.com/metro-london/

[2] https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/bus-route-maps/k...

The latest tube maps include the time it takes to walk along a line between stations in the central zones. It's not a to-scale map, but it gives some useful hints.

https://tfl.gov.uk/maps/track/tube

The problem with making the London map topographic and to scale is that the northwest extension of the Metropolitan line stretches far out into the countryside. A to-scale map would have to shrink the central area - the most useful part of the map - which would make it cluttered and hard to read.

The zone system on the map provides useful hints about absolute distance without being perfectly to-scale.

That aside, most people using a metro system need to know how long it will take to get somewhere on the system more than they need to know exactly where they are.

TFL's app includes journey time estimates.

The MBTA (Boston) map has long been mostly schematic. There were a couple points when I was an undergrad that I took the T (subway) and changed lines at least once only to discover I was about 2 blocks from where I started.

You can compromise this by having the urban core (often the main tourist area) done in a more “realistic” way and then the rest of the outlying lines done schematically.

New Yorkers say this stuff all the time to defend their unique geographical subway map, ignoring that the map is still so far zoomed out and inaccurate that it doesn’t help a tourist at all with any understanding that is relevant to walking distances. At the same time, the nyc subway map is incredibly confusing and idiosyncratic, tourists will keep getting confused and lost thanks to it while trying to navigate the actual subway system the map is primarily supposed to explain. How about making the map simpler, removing essentially useless geographical information but making sure ppl don’t get lost on the way to their destination stop.

To be fair, the NYC subway can be extra confusing for tourists from cities with more "predictable" metro systems. For example, in the Madrid and Barcelona Metros, all trains departing from each given platform are guaranteed to belong to the same line and will serve the same stations from A to B—no need to think at all. That's also usually the case in the London Underground, though some lines may split and there are some exchange stations where you need to pay attention as to what line the train arriving at the platform belongs to. Now compare that to the NYC Subway, with its routes, lines, express services, local services, etc. Anyone used to the simplicity of Madrid or Barcelona style systems is bound to find it confusing.

Not that I have anything against the idea though, it's just a different philosophy and it is connected somewhat to the NYC Subway's rare 24/7 service. I have fun memories of when I went to New York with my parents when I was 18, and they were simply unable to understand the Subway in depth and relied on me to make sense of it.

A hundred years ago most subway maps were more geographic - until Londons tube map came along. Most cities over time switched to a more easy to understand diagrammatic map. In New York, the resistance to that change was huge - it was tried in the 70s with the vignelli map, and failed.

If u remove all the unnecessary geography, u can have more affordances to show night time service and or local and express patterns … look at the weekender, which is much more understandable to ppl from other places.

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