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Comment by thaeli | Hacker News Reader

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k.

Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k.

Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin service dealers do.

Suspension components, air conditioning, etc? No difference, and that stuff shouldn't need to be touched in the first 100k anyway.

Tires? BEVs eat tires.

Still need wiper blades, cabin filters, etc. But those aren't big items either way.

I guess I just don't see where all this recurring service revenue comes from. Cars just don't break until they're 10-15 years old. Maybe some cars are really that unreliable still?

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I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing.

That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes.

Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k.

Of course, the part no one talks about:

1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

I've been using the vacation reasoning for a long time. I've just about convinced myself to get an EV and to rent an ICE for vacations. It keeps the mileage off my odometer that way, too.

> It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

My observation is that it depends on the brand of the car. If it's a Toyota or Honda, or other well to do brand that people with credit scores reminiscent of FDA minimum cooking temperatures cannot afford it's the owner's fault that the timing belt snapped at exactly six miles more than the recommended change interval, they should have got it done proactively.

If it's a Nissan, GM or <clutches pearls> Chrysler then it's obviously the car's fault that it needs a fair number of suspension parts after spending 120k being fully sent over rural gravel roads with 300lb of tools in the trunk.

This pattern of double standards that absolves "things that should be nice" from blame when they fail to meet those expectations and blames more modest products even when their failures are reasonable can be seen across many classes of products, not just cars.

I think it’s worth noting that mileage doesn’t necessarily correspond to maintenance expenses. It’s only a rough rule of thumb.

People like to talk about mileage because it’s an easy-to-measure stand in for the age of a car based on its usage. But over time they forget that like in humans, there’s a lot of variation at the same age.

There’s other factors like road conditions, cost of parts, cost of labor in different parts of the country, unexpected events like fender benders, etc. that the mileage number doesn’t capture.

The same 100k mile car driven in a leafy suburb where not much goes on is going to be different from a car with the same mileage driven under harsher conditions.

> The same 100k mile car driven in a leafy suburb where not much goes on is going to be different from a car with the same mileage driven under harsher conditions.

Scotty Killer on YouTube said something slightly different. He said highway miles are almost one tenth of city miles. Or in other words, stop and go traffic is ten times as bad as constant driving without traffic. At least for the engine and the transmission I guess.

> How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

Stopping for a meal, bathroom, and stretch break every 300 miles or so?

> Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

I'd typically buy a new ICE car before the 400k kilometers cited, as repair costs accelerate, so this isn't really a significant difference.

I can do 900 miles in about 12 hours, at my max.

With a 300 mile range, I'd need at least 2 stops that are 4-6 hours, unless if I find a super rapid charger. That turns a sucky 12 hour day with 1-2 hours of stops into a 16 hour trip with probably 1-2 hours of additional stops still.

So now I need to power through or get a hotel.

Ah, one of those. Typically most people are happy to stop for 30-45 minutes every 300 miles of driving.

The only people I know who only stop to refuel and then carry on until they've basically driven 12 hours straight are just trying to flex, it's some masculine thing.

More and more vehicles are getting 100-150kW charging, which definitely pushes a full charge more into the 25-40 minutes range for 80kWh EVs.

I wonder if having smaller cars would help as well, American cars/"trucks" always seem so pointlessly oversized. If the number of single occupant trips in London in things like Minis makes me sad, then I don't even want to think about single occupant trips in F150s in America.

Wow. You did a fantastic job at attempting to change my mind.

Are you seriously resorting to a manphobic ad hominem attack at someone's masculinity for simply pointing out stopping for 4-6 hours every 4-6 hours of driving obviously doubles trip time, and would require those who are trying to save money on flying, but not wanting to waste a half-week driving to the beach or a vacation spot is obviously because that person is on some sort of bench pressing flex thing?

Perhaps you forget the US is 40x bigger than Great Britain, so obviously what works for the majority of those in Britain (e.g. 300 miles) may not cleanly translate to other countries. I'm not telling you to not get an EV. It might work perfectly for you. But as of yet, all those advocating for it and blaming the problems of the world on ICEs still hasn't addressed the basic concerns many people still have about EVs.

Tell me your a condescending narcissist without telling me your a condescending narcissist again.

Lmao >The only people I know This is quite obviously an anecdote, never did I refer to you.

We can only draw comparisons from our own experiences and the majority of people I know do not drive such long distances, the ones I do know make a point of stressing the fact that they do not stop whenever I have gone on a long journey with them.

I haven't forgotten the relative size of the US, but the same applies to any country of relative size. I guess it begs the question of _why_ you all drive so far. Does land mass correlate to miles driven? Is it because of an emphasis of road infrastructure over public transport/rail? Hmmm

Sure, if you rule out rapid chargers, the math looks worse, but that's a bit like complaining about the availability of gasoline in the early 1900s.

There's already a pretty extensive network of rapid chargers, and it's growing all the time.

Can I pull into any charger, pay whatever I need to, for 5-15 minutes and be on my way for another 300+ miles?

My understanding is that you were stuck with the charging network that each manufacturer is making.

my car tells me to take it for service minimum once a year, for maintenance that's going to cost $500-$800 depending on the alternating schedule. 2-3 hours in the bay max. It's mostly visual, filters and fluids... material costs are small.

If there are problems, it'll be $170/hour plus parts...

A lot of people just do what the computer says and take it to the dealer. The workshop is always full... it has about 20 bays.

That's a lot of income for the dealership. If you drive a lot it'll be more than one a year...

I do as much maintenance as I can myself. If it's something I cannot manage (last year I had a split hose on the transmission radiator line) I take it to an independent shop.

They don't make their service revenue primarily from brand new cars, for the obvious reasons you've stated. It's when the timing chains, water pumps, head gaskets, piston rings, clutches, etc break, or the preventative maintenance to keep them from breaking (Audi timing chains, 10x $$$ if you don't replace them on schedule because of the interference engine), including the regular fluid flushes, battery replacements, air filters, etc. 80% margins on the little things add up :)

Using my experience with a ICE Chevrolet from 20k-120k miles basically nothing big happened before 100k, especially nothing that wouldn't happen in an EV. One set of tires replaced, front brakes, and a couple tire alignments. I did transmission fluid and spark plugs at 100k, and had a catalytic converter replaced and a coolant leak after 100k. None of that went to a dealership though.

That’s true if your vehicle came from Japan or South Korea.

US big 3 or German cars are a maintenance nightmare.

I have owned F150's all my life, But a 3 year old off lease used one, drive it for 5-8 years, trade in for a 3 year old off lease used one

Other than normal fluid changes, I can count on 1 hand the number of repairs I have had to do on any of them.

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