Comment by johnwheeler | Hacker News Reader

Comment by johnwheeler | Hacker News Reader

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> Please don't do this. Believe it or not, it's actually really easy from the management side of the table to tell when someone is just laying on the flattery and trying to say all the right things to butter people up.

Actually it’s been shown that ass kissing and flattery are quite effective unfortunately.

> Engineers who try to "play politics" usually overestimate their ability to manipulate other people and underestimate other people's ability to see right through it.

Actually, engineers are often quite adept at manipulating social systems to their advantage. If you think engineers are just heads-down nerds without personal agendas they promote ruthlessly, you’re the patsy.

> Chronic liars and manipulators may not be called out in public, but their negative reputation will spread quickly among people in the know.

Seriously? Politics over the last 10 years come to mind. Bad behavior is often rewarded. Doesn’t mean you should partake, but I don’t call it cynicism as much as realism.

> > Chronic liars and manipulators may not be called out in public, but their negative reputation will spread quickly among people in the know.

> Seriously?

Why do you doubt that at all? It's literally what the parent comment suggested doing: Keeping track of different people and getting a sense for who impacts business outcomes versus who is all talk. This is what people do in general. It's not some magical skill that only engineers can have. We all observe who gets things done and learn who can't follow through over time.

These ideas that only engineers can see how things work and that once we're promoted to management we just become dumb robots incapable of seeing reality is ridiculous.

> Politics over the last 10 years come to mind. Bad behavior is often rewarded. Doesn’t mean you should partake, but I don’t call it cynicism as much as realism.

Politics isn't the workplace. If you're using hot-button public politics spanning the country as an analog for teams working together in a workplace, you're going to end up with some deeply flawed mental models of how management works.

>Politics isn't the workplace. [...] you're going to end up with some deeply flawed mental models of how management works.

I mean, I sort of agree... But on the other hand, it's literally called 'office politics' and is generally pretty analogous with 'public politics' (e.g. balancing diverse viewpoints to achieve a common goal). It's not really as binary as you are implying.

You are not promoted to manager. It is a different career choice, but the fact that you see it that way explains a lot about your position.

Ouchie, that's pretty nasty and uncharitable interpretation and feels like a needless attack to the poster :-/

There are people who decide early in their career to go technical and never change their mind.

There are people who decide early in their career to go management and never change their mind.

But there are a LOT of people in the middle, and that's been the overwhelming majority of people I (anecdotally) know in management roles - they were good at what they do so they were promoted to management - junior dev, senior dev, tech lead / architect... whopsie, now you're manager and you don't know how you really got there; or you found you are good at talking to customer, understanding their pain points, and are also good at helping and supporting your team, so you accept a promotion you never thought you would a decade ago. And any other number of permutations. But I do know any number of people who did not "make a different career choice". They simply were doing a good job and ended up a manager. Inertia is a more powerful career drive than many people acknowledge.

It seems to me people get tempted into management rather than promoted. It's a shitty job that they agree to do because the money is better and they like having power over others.

It feels we will have to agree to disagree. Very few people I know got into management for "power over others" - as most people and articles and lessons and training for managers will tell you - it's a common perception that managers have power.then you become manager and realize it's all constraints and targets and you have crap all power and you owe everybody everything - up down and sideways. I'm not saying that power-hungry sociopaths don't exist, absolutely they do, but I think by sheer numbers they are overwhelmed by regular folks just trying to do their job.

(Oh and, for many companies, project managers are paid less than senior developers, so it's not necessarily better money either)

> You are not promoted to manager

This seems like a statement you could use to describe one’s own path, but not the path of others.

People absolutely are promoted to management positions. This cannot be disputed.

Whether the individual transitions into the role effectively and becomes a good manager is a separate thing.

I’ve worked with managers who started as devs, and took naturally to the role.

I’ve worked with horrible managers who started from the same place.

> but the fact that you see it that way explains a lot about your position.

What does it explain? You are implying it’s meaningful, but it’s impossible to engage with your position until you articulate it.

It's a different career choice that leads to a higher salary ceiling and a higher status and power position in a way that is much easier to achieve than an equivalent individual contributor.

That's a lot of words to say "it's a promotion".

It's not a promotion! It's taking a sucky job that no one else wants because the money is better.

Plenty of companies do not have technical career ladders of any note or value.

It is often rewarded but generally people will remember it much longer than good things and it will show at marginals.

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