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Comment by elif | Hacker News Reader

The perspective of this piece is a little suspicious:

-ferrari still maintain that they will never produce electric cars

-the concept of hub motors is a fad that has come and largely gone. Putting the motors inside the wheels leads to reliability concerns

-motors with smaller diameter will need more power for the same performance of a larger diameter motor, and the battery is the heavy part

Normally each of these i'd let slide as journalist ignorance but the combination makes this read like ICE propaganda to me.

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This is no longer true about Ferrari.

"Ferrari’s first all-electric car will arrive in 2025."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-ferraris-plan-to-enter-t...

Ferrari has no choice. They’ll eventually be banned on noise pollution grounds/ be too low performance to be considered super cars if they stick with internal combustion.

When you buy a Ferrari you buy an experience, history etc, engine sound is good part of that experience. No way Ferrari will be banned for noise or pollution. On road a Ferrari noise is quite low when running low speed. Pollution is non existent for cars that drive few kms per year.

Ferrari already sell enough cars in the EU per year to be subject to the 2030 ban on ICE powertrains. If they drop their manufacturing by 5-10% then they could conceivably fall into the 2035 bucket.

Living in an area with an above average number of hyper-cars on the road. There is every possibility that they will be banned for noise or pollution. The roar of a Ferrari engine is unmistakable even at low speeds (especially when compared to the noise of an EV or hybrid)

Supposedly it's already happening, although I think in this particular case Nissan is just whining and can't actually sell the car because it's outdated. https://jalopnik.com/nissan-killed-the-gt-r-in-europe-becaus.... The regulations are thankfully only going to get stricter.

Honda Civic Type Rs have a speaker system that makes more impressive engine sounds for the driver. Maybe Ferrari can go with that

I don't think you understand the mindset. It's not about mimicking something good, it's about having something good. Your 2$ Casio watch is more accurate than a Rolex, yet people still go for the Rolex

EVs bring performance in the same way Audible brings performance to "reading", ie it's a complete different experience, and some people prefer the old way.

No performance oriented person look at Tesla specs and drool, sure you smoke a fefe in a straight line, add a few turns and quick decel/accel and it's a whole other story. The m3 battery alone weight 1/3rd of a whole Ferrari

Cars like the Lamborghini Urus do that and replay fake engine sounds through the speakers, and it's an absolute abomination

nobody who buys Ferrari for what the brand represents and delivers is accepting this fake approach, thats for cheap brands

When everyone has EVs the sound of any IC is going to become increasingly noticeable. I can see a point where IC vehicles are banned from cities on noise grounds alone.

When 99.99% of cars are EV the common man will not care about the rare ICE car that comes along anymore than he cares when he sees the DPW driving a backhoe down the street.

By the time the long tail of "people driving old junk" is narrow enough for banning ICEs to be politically palatable the bulk of the people screeching about it now will have picked up some more pressing issue and be caring about that instead.

Not going to happen in 50 years, probably more. I still see a lot of >20 yo cars, lots of people simply can't afford a new or even used car. Let alone trucks: my father was a concrete mixer truck owner (sorry I don't know exact word for that), when fully loaded the truck run 300 meters with one liters of diesel, it's more than 30 liters per 100kms.

How many Ferraris do you see every day ?

For every Ferrari you have hundreds of 1970-80s diesel cars which pollute just as much in every city centers

How often do you see a car from the 80s still on the road?

oof, every single day, they easily outnumber ferraris

Plaid's times around the Nurb show that when weight gets solved with solid state batteries, which is what all the high end cars will use, ICE won't be competitive.

And while it's been a bit like fusion power, always a couple years away, enough is happening in solid state that it's probably happening in a couple years.

Now, it might now be competitive in the mass market, where I believe sodium ion and LFP/LMFP/etc chemistries will dominate for probably a decade, but it will own the 100k+ car segment.

You mean, plaid has terrible Nordsleife performance? Overheating, super bad brakes and they run out of charge after 1 lap. Also, the lap-record of the plaid is not impressive at all compared to ICE.

The plaid lap-time was not on a standard car. They had ceramic brakes which you cannot order from Tesla. There were probably more modifications done on the car.

Also, a part from the weight, the range of EV vehicles seriously needs to go up to be competitive to ICE.

Plaid's Nurb lap only showed how far behind these cars really are still.

"Plaid's Nurb lap only showed how far behind these cars really are still. "

It basically has the all-drivetrain production sedan. Oh sure... Tesla doesn't offer 50 racing trims like Porsche and BMW. Whatever. Tesla did some afterthought track kit and broke the record. But... sure, go ahead and pretend it doesn't. I loved how Jalopnik commenters collectively shit their pants and called false news like they are used to from watching OAN. Good to see its still alive.

You think tesla has teams of engineers devoted to cranking out racing versions of Plaid? Yeah, uh, no. That's what makes their Nurb time even funnier. It was probably a couple weekends of air kit testing and a cage retrofit.

You'd have a better argument talking about how the IDR is 45 seconds off of the LMP derivative. But I think you know in the back of your head when about 10 years of forthcoming battery and motor tech gets developed... that isn't standing.

Motorheads can talk about 1000HP engines and top speeds they never hit, it doesn't matter. 0-60 is owned by EVs. Quarter miles are a wash. Endurance racing? Battery swaps. Wireless charging built into the track. Who cares.

Racing will need to make a decision: have all racing be like NASCAR with carburetors in the year 2010, or be at the forefront of transportation evolution and development. F1 and LMP is already behind with hybrids, those were introduced in 1997 with the Prius.

Electric vehicles are terrible for racing. All your arguments are things that don't even exist yet. I'm not a motorhead, I'm trying to be unbiased.

The Tesla is absolutely not ready for Nurburgring laps. It did a quick time but that's just marketing. Tesla's are not race ready. Again, the brakes suck, they are terrible, dangerously so. The battery will overheat and you can't do more than one lap.

Again, currently, EV is still far behind to be competitive to ICE for racing.

On a hotlap they'll probably be quick but electric racing cars would still end up spending hours in the pits if they raced at le mans for example

They actually managed to get a luxury bullshit ICE vehicles exception for the upcoming European ban of ICE cars.

Ferrari's making the SF90 stradale as a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

https://www.ferrari.com/en-US/auto/sf90-stradale

It certainly feels like ice propaganda, a great way to summarize. These companies say they will have an edge but today they are at 0 in AMG and Ferrari. They are in danger of being superseded by entirely new companies building EVs, and not just Tesla. Chinese companies will crush them too, because the Chinese companies have the battery supplies. Most legacy makers like Toyota look to be in terrible shape, VW is the best placed legacy company.

It's similar to the ones that say:

Solid state batteries will let the companies that aren't doing EVs yet catch up, and fix all the terrible, terrible problems current EVs have so don't buy an EV right now, please, don't buy our competitors products that are available now.

“ICE propaganda” is something that I would actively follow and support, I’d even put my vote for a political platform that would have it front and center. Unfortunately this article was nothing of the sorts, as the future of vehicle transportation doesn’t depend on its luxury makers.

Honestly why stop there? I'm big on the Fred Flintstones foot-driven model. I'd even put my vote behind a political platform that has it front and center.

I think cars make the world worse, but to the extent that we have them electric cars are significantly better than ICE cars in basically every way. I want less cars, but until then, they should be electric. Efficiency is higher, torque off the line is significantly better, carbon footprint is lower, they're way more fun to drive and significantly simpler from a mechanical perspective. What's not to like?

> Honestly why stop there?

ICE cars were a lot better than horse- and cow-driven carts (I should know about the latter, my entire childhood at my grandparents was spent in cow-driven carts on the way to the the hay-growing fields and back, think this [1]), while I don't see EVs better than ICE cars.

Yes, on some technical parameters they are better, as you mention, but on many others they are not: the charging times will never come down to reasonable times unless we discover some new laws of physics, which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station), prices will never go to the same level as ICE cars (unless ICE cars become even more expensive thanks to new extra taxes imposed from top-down), the EVs are "dependent" on their computer OSs, I have very rarely met a computer OS that is easily updatable and maintainable after 10 or so years, as such, most of the EVs will become a pain in the ass to own after those 10 or so years (as it now happens to smart-phones after 3-4 years).

[1] https://alpinet.org/foto/2003/10/22/ZjkyOGRhZDE5ZmZmNjUwMjEw...

> ... the charging times will never come down to reasonable times unless we discover some new laws of physics...

Supercapacitor development continues apace, but even without, a wall connector gets you 40 miles per hour charged, and a supercharger gets you 200 miles per hour charged. So my question is, just how far are you going? If it's really far, consider a bus, train or plane.

> ... which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station)

You spend a half hour or more every few days at a gas station bud. Set a timer next time you go. Also, charge it at home?

> ... prices will never go to the same level as ICE cars (unless ICE cars become even more expensive thanks to new extra taxes imposed from top-down) ...

Of course they will, but remember, up front costs are only a tiny part of the picture. ICE cars will get more expensive if the oil and gas subsidies are removed - no need to add new taxes.

> ... the EVs are "dependent" on their computer OSs, I have very rarely met a computer OS that is easily updatable and maintainable after 10 or so years, as such, most of the EVs will become a pain in the ass to own after those 10 or so years (as it now happens to smart-phones after 3-4 years).

I suggest you check out what's going on in a gas car. BMW is/was selling CarPlay [1] and seat warmer subscriptions [2]. This has nothing to do with the fuel type and everything to do with evaluating new business models.

I'm not sure why advocating against all this needs a political party.

[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30139034/bmw-apple-carpla...

[2] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bmw-subscription-plan-for-seat-...

> > ... which in turn causes people like me, who live in apartment blocks, to not be able to have a EV (I'm not going to spend half an hour and more every few days at an electrical charging station)

> You spend a half hour or more every few days at a gas station bud. Set a timer next time you go. Also, charge it at home?

Who spends 30 minutes at the pump? The actual act of filling the car takes less than 5 minutes. Even if you include wait times it's still less than 30 minutes in a busy, car centric city (and then you need to account for the fact that EVs also have to wait to charge).

The comment you replied to explicitly stated they live in an apartment, so at home charging isn't an option.

I would only consider an EV if I had a SFH. Even if the building I live in adds a few charging stations, it's not worth the hassle to go fully electric.

> The comment you replied to explicitly stated they live in an apartment, so at home charging isn't an option.

Why do you say that? Many apartment blocks have chargers, and in some places they're mandatory or going to be mandatory soon.

> Even if the building I live in adds a few charging stations, it's not worth the hassle to go fully electric.

What do you mean specifically?

Unless each parking stall will have an EV charger, you will have to share with others. That means plugging your car in (when it's not occupied) and remembering to go back down, unplug, and repark your car in another spot. When the charger is occupied, you'll have to wait until it's available. My condo does not have a charger and AFAIK there's no plan to add one any time soon.

EVS are already cheaper and the crossover price for up front cost has long been predicted to happen in the next couple of years.

So they'll be cheaper up front, cheaper to run and pollution will be taxed and regulated more making running an ICE less attractive.

The US had a decent attempt at forcing EVs to be only luxury vehicles, but the rest of the world didn't fall for that.

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