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Comment by nabilhat | Hacker News Reader

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either, just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.

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You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird automatic manual.

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

At least in a Tesla it will automatically dial torque down when slip is detected. It accomplishes this via lowering amperage to the motor, it also can adjust wheel spin using individual wheel braking.

All of this is already working fine with no transmission... Adding one to a consumer EV for snowy conditions is a step backwards in terms of more stuff to break and maintain.

I believe this makes more sense for heavy equipment and freight trucks. You wouldn't want to have the gear ratio for heavy load all the time, as it would require the motor to spin at high RPMs (inefficient) to maintain highway speeds even when the amount of torque required is low.

From driving quite a bit on ice tracks here in Norway, tesla is by far the best there is when it comes to safety on snow/ice.

Not the most fun though unless you enable track mode or disconnect the traction control sensors.

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan).

The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

The real problem with electric cars and modern cars in general in the snow is the sheer weight of the vehicles makes it harder to stop in an emergency.

Most of the crummy AWD systems they throw in the majority of cars these days can get you unstuck or up a hill so that’s not a major advantage.

Also, car makers tend to throw on low friction tires on electric cars to increase range which invites another set of problems.

With proper winter or all-weather tires you'll actually get better stopping for a heavier vehicle (the tires will have more friction as a function of the weight so less chance of slip even though you have more to stop).

I haven't encountered snow since my last manual died but that's my understanding of electronic traction control--give the job to the computer that can do a far better job than any human.

When the computer can outperform a human let the computer do it! Only give control of things where at least some drivers can outperform the computer. And, while not relevant to driving, if there's a grey area let the operator hit an override to use it. (Boeing--the plane does what you tell it even if you go outside the envelope. Airbus--the plane stays in the envelope no matter what you tell it to do. The first makes for broken birds, the second means the pilot in trouble can't decide to risk breaking the bird if that's what's needed. If you need 4g to clear terrain you do it even if the bird is only rated for 3g.)

If the human is doing the traction control job, they know how far from the edge of the envelope they are (because the difficulty changes). If it's a computer doing that, it's hard to communicate that to the human (iiuc we don't even try). Unless this is improved, this means that sometimes it's better to leave a human in control of both strategy and tactics even if the computer would outperform on tactics.

Interesting. I have fanatical Tesla fanboy friends in Denver Colorado who don't drive their teslas much in winter because they handle poorly in the snow on steep inclines and declines. The door lock issues and cold weather battery energy life and charging issues were their other problems

The RWD is a bit of a different beast than the AWD. It's much easier to get stuck on that one due to its weight when reversing up a hill.

ah that explains it, thanks!

Do you have snow tires? Living in a snowy region, I've learned that nothing makes as big a difference as snow tires -- whether the car has stick, automatic, AWD, whatever.

Admittedly, it's hard for me to directly compare stick and automatic because the cars with automatic were also much heavier -- a minivan and a SUV.

North Europe, snow tires are mandatory. That's that - so effectively changing tires twice a year Apr/May and Nov

I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control?

Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the wheel?

Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake and may limit power from the engine?

[1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-con...

Traction control has all sorts of tricks it can use to get you pointed in the right direction. Traction control systems can brake individual wheels to apply rotational torque to counter excessive yaw like when the back tires come loose and the back swings out, the car can induce rotation in the opposite direction to sort things out before they get too dangerous.

The other common case is when taking off in a straight line, the car can limit power in excess of what the wheels are capable of putting down. This is usually accomplished with a combination of limiting power and in some cases braking individual wheels as they lose traction to simulate the effects of having a differential.

Electric cars do better much in the latter case because of how quickly they can limit power compared to an engine. It’s one of the reasons electric cars dominate 0-60 tests because they can adjust power hundreds of times a second whereas that’s simply not possible with a gas engine.

The argument was that the addition of a transmission would allow more control in snow. Is that only in situations where there isn't traction control, or where it is disabled?

Would traction control be expected to outperform a human on snow? Is the higher weight of an EV going to make it handle poorly anyways?

A transmission will do nothing for an EV in the snow. The existing traction management is more than sufficient for starting up but slowing down or changing directions in an EV in traction limited situations will likely always be worse than an equivalent gas car just because of excessive weight.

Traction control will outperform an above average driver on snow. I've driven lots of fast cars sideways and lived in the Northeast my whole life and I leave the TC system on because while I know how to control a slide on a racetrack, I don't want to do the same on a public road.

Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.

And it might be a good trade-off to pair a motor with a peaky torque curve with a 2-speed or 3-speed gearbox.

But if your _only_ goal is to limit torque, you could simulate that by re-mapping the pedal.

Say, by hitting "Eco" mode on a Prius.

My comment is more about why torque should be limitable, not a critique on electric cars.

Most cars have traction control AFAIK. Instead of limiting max torque, they notice when it's spinning the wheels.

Same in reverse for breaks and abs.

On my car you can turn it off if you want some fun on dirt tracks.

Once the wheels are spinning, its often too late. At least in my experience. Its best used to accelerate with minimal spin, and is mediocre - at best - at preventing traction loss in turns of any kind.

Limiting torque is as simple as running the motor in current-control mode

I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox.

All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.

It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like, "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything." After my fellow American identifies with something, then its obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our current political environment for extreme examples.

That's an interesting point, perhaps that's why seemingly simple preferences can be so divisive over there. If you identify as one tribe, you necessarily are not part of the other tribe. I find that come out in online discussions a lot, an advocate for one thing is often interpreted as an attack on the other. "I like muscle cars" can be met with "what's wrong with imports?" even when you never said anything ill against them.

The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque.

There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.

There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it.

In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with.

This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs and therefore more price conscious.

There is also a separate license category for automatic cars. If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the flexibility and the cost reasons.

1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-car...

I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.

Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after:

Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket.

Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actually go into park, with the shenanigans you’d imagine there would be as the parking pin attempted to engage with the forcefully spinning gears.

I've never pulled that one but I've done a couple of very hard stops coming off the freeway. Long drive, tired, I hear the engine RPMs dropping and my foot comes down on the "clutch" as my hand goes for the gearshift. I learned on a car with a very stiff clutch, I catch the brake pedal and it's going to the floor. (My father had a bad habit of riding the clutch while going through the gears. A mechanic friend deliberately put in a stiffer spring to minimize the damage.)

Smoothly operating a manual has to be muscle memory and whenever you're dealing with muscle memory there's the issue of unintended capture. It doesn't take much to reprogram things like learning the actual working range of *this* clutch but skipping it entirely takes a lot more learning.

Moving from manual to power brakes is also a recipe for slamming on the brakes..

In high school, I drove a really old car with manual everything (including brakes). Our drivers ed class was taught on 80s american sedans, with overboosted power steering and brakes where you could probably just touch them with a single toe to stop. Coming from the manual brakes in my car where I needed to stand on them to stop, I'd inadvertently slam on the brakes early in my turn at the wheel and throw everyone against the seatbelt tensioners..

I once had power brakes fail in my car, (vacuum line leak, rubber connections disintegrated with age, thus: no turbo and no brakes) but needed to go on 300 km trip (in hindsight, I contracted get-there-itis and this was unnecessary risk). At first: woah, I have no brakes! But after few minutes I got used that I need to stand on the pedal and it somewhat braked. But it was surprising when I finally replaced that rubber piece: obviously I knew about this, but for first few stops I slammed the brakes hard anyway.

The UK authorities agree with you: if you pass the exam with a manual car you can use both, but if you pass it with an automatic one, you can only drive automatic ones.

It's the entirety of Europe - manual=both, automatic=automatic only.

Switzerland had that, but abandoned the distinction in 2019: now there are no transmission restrictions on Swiss licenses.

Source: https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmittei..., grep for Automateneintrag

I'm not saying it's hard (I had to, given the automatic rental when visiting the US), but it's not just about learning how to do it, it's also about reflexes, which you don't unlearn in 15 minutes. Sure you can learn to consciously suppress them, but the habit of finding a pedal with your left foot when accelerating/decelerating lures behind it for a lot longer.

Somewhat surprisingly, in the UK Autotrader lists 230k manual cars and 195k automatics

So the fraction of manual-transmission cars in the UK is much lower than I would have expected.

no one cares about the potential difference in torque

This stops being true the first time you depress the accelerator on an EV. My Kia has a 0-60 time comparable to a low-end Porsche.

Are you saying that like it's an obvious and irrefutable benefit? Having driven two EVs, I can safely say that 0-60 times specifically, and acceleration in general, are totally irrelevant to me. As long as the vehicle has no issues accelerating on the on-ramp (so most cars from the last 30years), everything extra is useless.

The actual reason for having gears even with EVs in european vehicles, is mostly the "one plattform" approach which carmakers here afraid to go all in on EVs. Hybrids, traditional combustion and EVs are expected to share as many parts as possible - which of course as all engineering compromises go means you become 2nd best in all areas.

Any examples of cars where that's the case?

The Kia Niro is available in three models: Petrol, Hybrid and EV. Now, I have the EV and it doesn't have any gears, but I'm pretty sure there is a lot of things shared between these cars.

To your point, the Niro hybrid IIRC does still use a 6 speed transmission as opposed to something like a Prius, or Fusion. Those use an eCVT (much simpler planetary gearset to control power flow between ICE, electric motor, and the wheels.)

For new cars that's not true anymore.

Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no.

So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.

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