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Comment by rcarmo | Hacker News Reader

I liked GraphViz a lot, but eventually got frustrated with its layout algorithms and default look and feel. I would switch to Mermaid wholesale if it could render SVGs without requiring a browser engine.

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I’ve personally settled on grapviz (a derivative actually, plantuml) being “good enough” for casual diagrams. Plantuml is built with the idea that it’s for quick and dirty communication, and I think graphviz translates well to this. It’s a nice way to put together a sequence diagram that just helps you understand control flow (and then never took at it again).

I have to admit, I haven’t found a more formal programmatic tool. Ultimately I have to turn to “by hand” tools if I want something more complicated. If you can’t translate that last statement, it means I just never do anything more complicated.

The next step are tools like featdoc which let you define systems and interaction rules which then generate a (mermaid) sequence diagram.

Example at https://dev.azure.com/itmv/Coffee%20Shop/_wiki/wikis/Coffee-...

Project at https://github.com/Calpano/featdoc

Disclosure: I maintain this project

I also promote PlantUML for projects, specifically because:

1. It provides a convenient DSL targeting specific diagram use-cases that I actually want (generally sequence diagrams.)

2. The "source code" for the diagram is trivial to check in and diff with version-control, sometimes right along with the code it describes.

3. If the app/renderer is for some reason not available, the source is clear enough that you aren't completely lost.

I hadn't heard of Mermaid before this conversation, but it seems to hit some of the same notes.

As I said before, I'm a big fan. I do wish there was a sister project that was intended for a higher level of detail. PlantUML has explicitly stated in some forum responses that it intentionally limits your ability to place elements exactly where you want them. I totally understand their decision, and I greatly enjoy using it for its intended use cases. There just isn't really anything that comes close to the practicality of PlantUML for more detailed diagrams, and I feel like PlantUML would be the best starting place for such a tool.

The creator of PlantUML is working on translating graphviz into a native form to eliminate the dependency for PlantUML use. Once this has been done, it would open up even a whole new world of possibilities (graphviz does allow a bit more specification of element locations).

For mermaid, would pairing it with selenium and/or a headless browser be an option?

Not sure if this question is directed at me. My understanding is that mermaid is relatively similar to plantuml in that it doesn't give you 100% control over layout and diagram features.

What plantuml lacks (maybe mermaid less so) could really only be improved upon by working with raw svg I think. There is a LaTex package tikz that offer much more flexibility than plantuml/mermaid, but you still run into limitations in that diagram features are predefined.

Ah thanks for your answer comfypotato, Tikz looks even better then Graphviz. No, I misplaced my remark in the thread and directed at rcarmo just one level above who would have switched to mermaid if it didn't need a browser (or perhaps just node.js). Tikz also needs a LaTex dependency, with gigabytes of diskpace I'm personally not that frugal anymore with tooling size even though I like using as little disk space as possible. Perhaps rcarmo reads the thread further, perhaps not.

Heck no. Why can't it generate the SVG without a browser?

Sketchviz looks a bit nicer, but also 'sketchy' https://sketchviz.com/new Regarding mermaid, see my misplaced comment one level deeper. I'd think that with node.js it can export to svg.

Last I checked it actually used puppeteer to launch a Chrome instance to render files, which was ludicrous.

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