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Comment by voisin | Hacker News Reader

Where are the politicians today who can quote Aeschylus at will? What happened to our national discourse that we’ve filled it with dimwits?

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That was a result of an elite education in the Latin and Greek classics. We don't do this anymore because most of us are not middle-class private boarding school-educated British people (where it was mandatory), not because we're dimwits.

Hrm, I went to public school in the 1980s and received a fair facsimile of a classical education.

It seems like it coincided with differences in attitude about education. I’ve forgotten the exact stats, but in decades past college students overwhelming said the purpose of college was to develop a philosophy of life whereas now the predominant answer is to find a good job.

I think this is the wrong way to characterize this change. What changed isn't the attitudes of individual students, but rather the demographics of the students themselves. In the ages past most people did not go to college, and most jobs did not require a degree, so only those who could afford to (upper class) went, and for those people, getting a job simply isn't that big of a concern.

You’re right, but I was making a statement about society more than individual students. It’s been a slow march. The demographic shift can be traced all the way back to the Morrill Act which started the wheels in motion for college to become a vocational endeavor rather than a cultural one.

I do feel that a large swath of jobs don't really need the college degree they seem to require. That sort of college-as-a-credential business model seems like a self-licking ice cream cone.

The Onion once joked that this may be more due to the public they’re appealing to than inability:

> In a serious miscalculation that may prove devastating to his bid for a second term, President Barack Obama neglected Tuesday to simplify a statement to the point where it could readily be grasped by anyone with the vocabulary of an 8-year-old. "Instead of saying, 'There are many global variables at work here, and unless they all fall into place, we could find ourselves back in a recession,' he should have just said, 'Times are hard. We gotta be strong,'"

https://www.theonion.com/in-major-gaffe-obama-forgets-to-dum...

Of course, they also joked about how absurd it would be for George W Bush to show literary depth:

https://www.theonion.com/bush-regales-dinner-guests-with-imp...

In the UK we have Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees Mogg, both of whom can and do regularly quote classical literature. You can have them.

No, really, please take them.

Boris and Jacob strike me as politicians that understand how to play the UK system masterfully.

Doubt either of them are the solution for the country but neither is anyone in labour.

The corruption precedes them by centuries, and anyone who tries to fix things - like remove the special status of the City of London now will get a shorten career.

Kinda like in the US to even have a chance to be the presidential candidate, you need the monetary support of several billionaires.

> like remove the special status of the City of London

For sure, because it would sink the country, these days the UK is more dependent on the city than the city is on the UK

Dependent like a cancerous organ that is slowly killing its host, while removing might kill it immediately sure.

So what is the proper course of action for a situation where treatment leads to instantaneous failure and status quo does not?

Same answer as always, evolutionary socialism. Tackling the Russian money would be a good first step today. Find something that works a little and is possible today, and change that.

Obama could speak eloquently and sincerely like that off-the-cuff: https://www.businessinsider.in/people-are-saying-obamas-off-...

Mitt Romney wasn't bad.

If you mean specifically quoting Greek poets and philosophers I would imagine Obama could (and has in speeches) but hard to tell which he wrote himself of course.

It is his favourite poet, so that might be why. A bit like a dimwit might remember all the lyrics to a beatles song.

To be fair, that kind of speech would alienate a lot of the public. An intelligent politician wouldn't even if they could-- unless they were running a very specialized campaign.

It's informative to look up some very old videos of George W speaking-- he sounds much more educated than he did when in office.

Now that speaking in a highly educated manner has become a signal of elite indifference (however that came to pass), I can't even say that the segment of public which is offended by it is wrong to be offended by it: Since anyone who could do it could turn it off, and they should turn it off-- the only reason they wouldn't is indifference to the people it might offend or ignorance of the norms in politics.

> Since anyone who could do it could turn it off, and they should turn it off

I sincerely hope you mean they ought to turn it off for the campaign trail, and even that's a depressing recommendation for those seeking public support.

Words matter. The language we use to discuss the world around us has a distinct influence on how we see, interact with, and frame both problems and solutions. Lowering the level of discourse helps nobody. That's why it's ill-advised to speak only in babytalk to young children - we want to help improve their language skills through practice, and by leading by example.

The English language (and I'm sure others) is a sprawling mess, but different words do have different connotations and histories that can have a practical affect on those you're speaking to. For example, speaking informally about firearms has left the Conservatives under the impression that legislators are drafting laws they don't really understand - and it's hard to fault them for that.

I think there is a lot of room for nuance here. Surely you don't think that quoting greek playwrights is equivalent to communicating effectively. :)

> filled it with dimwits?

Not knowing Aeschylus has nothing to do with wit.

To be dim-witted just means stupid, hasn't got to do with wit.

Stupidity and wit are intelligence and have nothing to do with historical knowledge.

They'll have to come from the landed gentry.

For those whose parents won't be paying the indenture, college has been priced to the point where ROI on the degree has to be the primary consideration for most of those going. And the return on Aeschylus is low, at least until you're giving speeches.

Just wait till the illiterate, misogynistic rap, tik tok, 6ix9ine, WAP, Onlyfans, and other generation starts coming into office and demanding UBI and nuking of Russia while you work your ass off. We'll all be labelled Nazis and clutching our collective pearls at that point trying to make sure our families survive.

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