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Comment by sgt | Hacker News Reader

I think this kind of energy crisis article gives a bit of a skewed perspective of SA. South Africa is still an absolutely brilliant place to live.

I can say this because, well, I am still here and I am not planning on moving. It of course assumes you have a decent income and that you don't live in a dodgy neighborhood.

Standard of living is very high. As for load shedding, you can easily mitigate this by putting up solar panels on your roof, an inverter and a bunch of batteries. You don't even need to pay right away, you just bake it into your bond (aka mortgage).

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> Standard of living is very high.

Yeah, if you're willing to look the other way and lock your car doors in literally the most unequal country in the world: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coef...

And since you're also a Saffer, I don't need to say anything about the daily threat from crime, and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences. Do you have electric fences and private security? Of course, just like all the other white people in South Africa. Afrikaans was my first language, I know how it is over there.

Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live", having lived in so many countries (including Poland, Czechia, Germany, NZ, England, ...).

> and how everyone lives basically in a castle with electric fences.

I feel like this is a huge exaggeration. I'm extremely far from an expert, but I'm in SA (right now) surfing and it's not that bad everywhere. Cape Town and the bigger cities felt like that, but I went through a bunch of small surfing towns/villages/suburbs and stayed in a bunch of places that didn't have electric fences.

They did have a sticker saying they paid for some security company, but that was it.

The inequality is absolutely disgusting though, I agree. It's such a shame, because it's such an amazing country.

Staying here longer definitely crossed my mind, so I see what people mean by quality of life. The food is amazing, amazing surfing and hiking spots, amazing wild-life, the list goes on and on. I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve. I did my best to tip well, but obviously that makes no difference at the macro level.

> I really wish it was possible to fix the inequality, but I can't even begin to imagine what that would involve.

It's not possible to do that, because the government is fairly and democratically elected[1], and the voters who keep supporting this government are too short-sighted to see that trying to vote themselves more handouts doesn't work in the long run.

[1] When a government stays in power for almost 3 decades, all the while being fairly elected by the voters, and the voters suffer because of it, who exactly are you going to blame? What exactly will you "fix"?

Education?

That is the long game, yes. Over time it's happening but tricky..

That's often the case - worse in the bigger places like JHB. No electric fence for us, but private security patrolling the neighborhoods yes (similar to ADT).

You know there are parts of America with the same crime and wealth divide as well?

> Do you have electric fences and private security?

Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries?

> Sorry but I'm going to have to disagree about "brilliant place to live",

Yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to call it brilliant, but my understanding is that, even if I move to another country, I'm still going to live in a secure place anyway, only it will be much smaller and more expensive, both at the same time.

I mean, no, not all other countries.

I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection.

There's more crime in other parts of Canada of course, and I enforce a bit stricter security in my own house due to my background, but honestly? Much of Canada is almost as nice as stereotype would portray it.

Again, not to say it's wonderful all the time for everybody everywhere in Canada ; it's not and I try to check my definite privilege. But I don't think people here really understand what "high crime levels" really means, on a world wide scale, and I don't think I've really seen a real gated community let alone anything like electric fence, outside of US embassy in Ottawa.

FWIW I lived in Winnipeg and various parts of Toronto, worked in Ottawa and Nova Scotia, visited Saskatchewan and Quebec. There are bad neighbourhoods for sure but it's not pervasive and bad neighbourhoods here are better than brilliant neighbourhood in some places I've lived.

> I mean, no, not all other countries. I moved to small town in Canada on the outskirts of Toronto. Literally nobody here locks the door, ever. They don't lock their cars, they regularly forget or leave their keys in their car. They definitely don't begin to have my habit of locking doors when you stop at an intersection.

I'd love this; what, in your opinion, are the odds that a 46yo (myself) with a wife and toddler and MiL and cats and dogs getting into Canada?

If I am already remotely working for a SA company? For a company in some other country?

I really don't mind living outside of popular areas if I am remotely employed anyway.

My opinion, unfortunately, is that I don't have a clue :-(. I immigrated as a teenager with my parents a quarter of a century ago as a refugee. Things are different now. Canada wasn't even our top five choice at the time, but BOY are we glad they took us on so many levels. I'm a very happy and very proud Canadian now.

Canada is actively supporting Immigration. Unlike our neighbours, pretty much all mainstream political parties across the spectrum acknowledge our need to bring fresh blood in (though we are getting more and more extremist parties which are seeing more success). But as to chances of any individual case? I'm sorry I haven't a foggiest idea. It's a point system and a long grind and lots of luck. You never know until you try, and my advice like with everything else is don't put all your eggs in one basket - there's new Zealand and Scandinavian countries and million other places I'd be happy to live in.

NZer here: depends on what your wife does and wants. For example nurses are in high demand everywhere.

I suspect small town life is similar in Australia, Canada, and New Zealand: safe (unlocked), possible to fit in, and the best place to bring up kids. My sister moved to a rural area and brought her kids up there and it was a great decision for everyone, versus my city (Christchurch, 400k people, okay but not great for kids IMHO - disclaimer: no kids!). I have no idea what to say if you are seeking city life.

My gut feeling would be to suggest Australia is the most likely best fit. But you should be able to find something that suits your situation and personalities in any of those three countries, if your desires are smart.

You really need to talk with friends and acquaintances that have moved - especially ones that were in your situation but are now decades later down that path.

The points system favourite education, skills, and language. So quite good for an English speaking tech worker, if you have the stamina to go through a long and clumsy immigration process. The first step would be to contact an immigration specialist here. It’s a whole industry, processing 300k immigrants a year.

> Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries?

No. Even in the US, I wouldn't say gated communities are the norm, and at least from what I've seen of what SA houses look like, they're vastly more serious about security than gated communities in the states.

> Sure, but isn't private security and gated living (AKA security fences) becoming the norm in most of the middle-class suburbs in many other countries?

Not anywhere I can think of in Europe or Australia.

I can understand your point though, if you're used to something it's difficult to change your lifestyle and that's true on both the positives and negatives. Someone used to living in a safe country wouldn't imagine exchanging that safety for a larger house. If you're used to the crime and have not lived anywhere safer then you do not see it as much of a negative. But once you have a large house with a bunch of stuff in it, it's difficult to imagine getting rid of some of the items and live somewhere smaller.

Cape Town was absolutely gorgeous when I visited, but the level of fortification of normal homes was definitely striking, coming from the US. You don’t see a lot of cement walls topped with glass shards here.

Not saying you’re wrong, but I also see these in Singapore, which is one of the safest countries in the world (I’m guessing they must be left over from the 60s when things were more chaotic?)

I'm suddenly realising that we probably know each other; you might remember me from the forums of a SA university we went to, I usually go by lycium :)

Yup, remember you :-)

It must be more expensive for a reason, right?

> It must be more expensive for a reason, right?

Sure[1], which is why I periodically check what standard of living I can expect if I emigrate to any of the countries I've visited.

I'm frequently shocked that in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage (I took a 15 year one, and am on track to pay it of in 10 years).

[1] High level of crime, low level of service delivery, shortage of opportunities for my kids, etc. I'm not blind, you know.

> ...in places like the US it is considered normal to have a 30yr mortgage...

Check the historical interest rates of the US/UK vs SA for why that exists.

>Standard of living is very high.

Ignoring the obvious massive disparity you are glossing over here I have perhaps a less antagonistic question.

Do you have to spend a lot on security? Some of these houses look like compounds with wire fences and huge gates etc.

I’m remember the coverage of the Pistorious trial showing all that etc.

I'm currently looking a houses in South Africa (Pretoria East and the Cape Town Area) and can provide a couple of data points.

In Pretoria I would only consider living in a security estate, Oscar lived in Silver Lakes which is one on the east side of town. All of these estates have walls, electric fences and armed security guards with access controls that require a remote or one time code etc.. Most houses inside of the security estates have very little if any security measures such as alarms etc. because the crime inside is generally petty low. These estates are very similar to US HOA's with architectural standards, many have pools, common ares, golf courses etc.. The levies (monthly fees) are usually between $58 and $174 a month. Taxes seem to run about $100 a month for a $260k house and in Pretoria that can get you a 400 square meter house on a nice sized lot with premium finishes and a pool.

The Cape Town area seems to have higher taxes and what appears to be some community security that seems to even out to the same as what you would pay for a similar house (price-wise) in a security estate in Pretoria. The difference is that it appears that you can have enough coverage with cameras and beams in the parts I've been looking at, though many choose to have the electric fences for good measure and there are some security estates as well.

I'm in Cape Town area but I think you get more value for your buck in JHB and Pretoria, and also the weather is much better there.

From what I've been seeing it seems like a trade off between a more functional government and better views in some places by the ocean vs less functional government, warmer weather, more crime and a bigger, nicer house.

We just have an alarm system hooked up to a local security company (similar to ADT) which costs about $20/mo

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