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Comment by CaveTech | Hacker News Reader

Almost as if graduate research and professors are required to build an environment for high-value undergraduate studies. The distribution of fees is far from ideal, but your complaint should not be directed towards those that literally define the institution you wish to attend.

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I have to agree with the GP comment. This is going to be a drain on both the undergrad programs and on the California taxpayers.

I am not convinced that the value add to the undergrad environment will make up for it.

Are you not aware that grad students teach sections, grade, and do most of the research work that brings in grant money? All for near-poverty wages. It's astounding how so many people are so ignorant of how universities operate, despite having attended them.

Sort of. Kinda. Maybe.

In my experience, graduate students aren't really that effective at research until several years in to their education. From a productivity standpoint, it is largely a loss. Many would prefer to hire post-docs instead. They end up being not much more expensive after everything else is taken into account, and they are ready to do good work from the get-go (which, for people who's livelihoods depend on getting tenure and/or grant money, is pretty dang important).

Postdocs were striking, too.

https://www.science.org/content/article/postdoc-union-reache...

People who do bulk of work related to teaching and research on teaching and research institutions are entitled to demand to be paid.

Cooks and waiters in restaurants don't work for free either. Programmers don't work for free and negotiate salary raises.

Graduate research has little relation to the quality of undergraduate studies.

https://www.hmc.edu/about/

What is the purpose of your link?

The data in that link shows that HMC provides a high quality undergraduate education. But they have very few graduate students doing research and teaching (just a handful of Master's degrees candidates) and don't have a doctoral program at all. So the statement by @CaveTech above is incorrect.

I didn't see any data on that page, it looked like a generic "about" page for a university

The data is literally right there under Mudd Facts.

Those are just marketing numbers used by every university. You could look at any university's website and say the same thing, not to mention it says nothing about graduate students or programs

Every university has numbers on their site claiming how awesome they are, it's meaningless

Pick a different set of metrics if it makes you happy. There are a bunch of independent sites where you can find data on education outcomes. Whatever.

The point is that by any reasonable standard, HMC delivers very high quality undergraduate education without having a bunch of graduate students doing research and assisting with teaching. Therefore the point made by @CaveTech above is invalid.

My assumption would be that the research education would be very subpar at an institution like that

Your assumption would be completely wrong.

https://www.hmc.edu/research/student-research-opportunities/

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