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Comment by bongobingo1 | Hacker News Reader

> Prior to its use as an antisemitic label or identifier, ((( screen name ))) had been used in online communities such as AOL to indicate that a user was "cyberhugging" the user with the specified screen name.

Why are all the nice things ruined by bigots.

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> Why are all the nice things ruined by bigots.

They aren't. If we just go about doing our thing such as using triple parentheses to mean hugs and the OK symbol to mean OK and the country's flag to mean reasonable love of home and country, then they'll find some other symbol. By making a big deal about what those people get up to and so avoiding them, we cede these beautiful, powerful symbols to assholes. Don't do it. It's the ceding that ruins them.

Just wait till you hear that some circles of the net think using pepe the frog is a racist dog whistle.

Or that using the ok finger gesture briefly was career ending because 4chan openly declared a psyop to see if they could bait social media into declaring it a white supremacist symbol. Worked like a charm and hysteria abounded for a couple of months before the next hysteria was birthed and that one quickly forgotten. Unfortunately, some people who don't keep up with the day-to-day changes in what's considered unacceptable communication, got labeled as racist for making the ok sign even though there was no ill intent or even knowledge that anyone now considered it a taboo gesture.

Wow, that probably was contained within the US? Never heard of it.

edit: Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol

Seems like they managed to have white power fans actually adopt it.

So this is where I don't know what to think - I'm overseas and don't exactly have my finger on the pulse of alt-right culture. I only knew it after it was co-opted by Nick Fuentes and his circle so I don't know if it was:

1. 4chan tries to say it means "White Power"

2. the news pick this up and runs with it

3. actual white nationalists started using it

1. 4chan tries to say it means "White Power"

2. actual white nationalists started using it

3. the news reports that white nationalists are using it

News orgs can be easily fooled into reporting ridiculous fake shit and backfiring - like the whole "teens eating tide pods" thing causing a few teens and boomers to actually try eating them - so both are possible, I'd suspect that the latter is more likely though.

It's mainly the media. While there was probably some far right groups/people who decided to go along first, the "association" of the OK sign with white supremacists was popularized by the medias

I’d say both are likely ;)

But it’s telling that the ADL at first refused to add it to their list of hate-signs, and then (according to wikipedia, after all I only heard of all this today) reversed their stance 2 years later. And almost all usage of the sign getting someone into trouble have also been 2019+ (again, from the wiki list).

Always use the OK sign (to mean OK), even if someone else uses it to mean something else. Use it aggressively, always, relentlessly, as protest against bigotry and against language policing.

If you're going to use it "aggressively, always, relentlessly" then you may have to brace yourself for the occasions when you use it to someone from Brazil (where it's said to be a gesture along the lines of the middle finger) or with black-bloc counter-protestors near a nazi rally, or any other context where it's considered hateful or just generally rude. The Brazilian may just think you're an asshole. The black bloc guys will assume you are with the nazis who just hospitalised their friend...

This is what's important - it's not banned, it's not going to get you jailed. It's just going to land you in a tricky situation if you use it where it's going to be interpreted as a hate symbol.

What you do with this information is up to you.

It will land me in "tricky situations" only with assholes. The Brazilian will probably, like any reasonable human being, understand.

Well, good luck. You’ll find out where people’s limits are one way or another.

Every day we all must suffer fools, or those who choose violence to support their views, or both. Our choice as peaceful, civilized, thoughtful people is whether we choose to let them win. Violence and thoughtlessness are the enemy, no matter which side indulges.

Yeah I think the important thing is regardless of the origin, or the order of events ... it is now sometimes used by white nationalists.

However I don't think that on its use on its own would cause a mob to mass report your account or anything. It's not so self-evidently a sign of hate as a hakenkreuz or the nazi salute would be, it's just worth remembering that in some rare situations it could be poorly received.

I don’t know, I still have questions. I was told exactly this in 2002 by my Southern good ol boy social studies teacher.

According to him, it was a sign that KKK members in his town used to signal group membership to one another. In his telling the three extended fingers meant KKK, and they would tuck the thumb and index finger in their belt or waistband.

Either he was making it up then and it’s a complete coincidence his story matches the 4chan story 15 years later, which is also made up; or there’s a kernel of truth to it, and this guy was letting us in on some weird aspect of racist subculture that made its way to the mainstream in 2017. These people had so many other weird customs (like calling themselves wizards and dragons), I don’t see why secret hand signals are out of the question.

Amazing anecdote either way :D

QAnon was a 4chan psyop and look where that ended up. These things tend to take on a life of their own once removed from their original context.

Like it or not, Pepe did get co-opted by a weird alt-right subculture, so while it later got reclaimed, for a while there was a good chance posting Pepe meant you were aligned with the alt-right or incel culture. There's an entire documentary on the artist behind it and what happened called "Feels Good Man" it's really quite good: https://www.feelsgoodmanfilm.com/

That felt pretty isolated to US bubbles, though. I had never even heard of it until 3 or so years ago, and on Twitch, Pepe was used throughout it all, including in LBTGQI+ channels.

Yeah that interpretation didn't permeate every community, it's good to hear it was always well received on Twitch. I do recommend the doc though, it sounds like you'd enjoy it :)

I remember very well that Pepe was used by all sides until some article on the Hillary Clinton's campaign website in 2016 that associated it with Trump and then suddenly you couldn't use it for anything with being labelled white supremacist

It's not surprising at all for the Hillary campaign to have completely misjudged and misunderstood something in an attempt to engage with online or youth culture.

I'm reminded of her awkward "I'm just chillin ... in Cedar Rapids!" vine

What happened was that journalists wrote articles claiming that Pepe was an alt-right symbol. But this was never based in fact, it was simply a misunderstanding by journalists ignorant of internet culture. The alt-right made a lot of Pepe memes because Pepe memes were popular at the time when Trump's campaign was taking off.

The problem is that when journalists make mistakes, it becomes fact, true or not.

It's runined by professional victims. The bigots would have no voice without their victims' amplification.

It is rarely the identified group complaining and instead almost exclusively rich, no problem in the real world, people and or trolls.

The impact is overwhelming power transfer to racists.

This makes sense given the skewed overlay of people who are now "social justice warriors" that were once incredibly prejudice clowns.

I argue they're ruined by people not parsing context (whether deliberately or otherwise).

Back when the alt-right "Electric Boogaloo" thing was going on, one article I think hit the nail on the head saying something "If you want to wear a Hawaiian shirt, go for it. Just maybe think twice about accessorizing with body armor and assault rifles." The point being that just because some nut jobs make a point of wearing Hawaiian shirt under their militia get-up doesn't poison Hawaiian shirts. Context matters.

This string has legitimate uses and also offensive uses. Context decides which one it is.

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