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Comment by SpeedilyDamage | Hacker News Reader

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> white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups.

You haven't proven differential opportunity. You've only proven that some groups outperform other groups. You have not proven whether this is due to opportunities, discrimination, or hard work. Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech?

1: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07311214221101...

If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play.

I wonder what black study rates would be if they were given the same chances as white and asian people are. Hopefully we’ll get there, but we’re still a long way off.

> If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play.

As the other commenter explained, the mere existence of disparities in representation is not evidence of "rigging the game".

Englishmen are under represented in the baseball world series.

Should I get to play despite never having held a baseball bat?

If you have the skills, yeah absolutely.

No that's discrimination, you're just re-enforcing the absence of the English in baseball.

You need to let me play, only then is it worth me starting to practice.

Sorry what? That's not how affirmative action works at all, you have to be qualified for a given spot, the whole point is that there are way too many qualified candidates as it is.

Go commented: > Asian students, for example, spend more than 3x as much time studying as Black students.[1] Do you think there's a chance that this contributes to their higher representation at Caltech?

To which you replied:

>If your cultural group is substantially underrepresented in academia, why would you participate in academics? If you know the game is rigged against you, it’s perfectly reasonable not to play...

So are they expected to 'play the game' or not?

Define qualified? If a get an E (technically a pass) am I 'qualified' to the same extent as someone with an A?

If I get my basic baseball proficiency badge does that allow me to play against the best baseballers the world has to offer? Just because of my race?

Further. You do understand the future danger of all this? If I'm looking to hire graduates and I know the black kids had an easier time getting in. If I want the best im better off not looking at the black kids. Their piece of paper is worth less. Plus you're infantalising them. They should be getting there on their own merits. If they aren't doing the work to get the grades, that issue should be addressed, not papered over.

Black kids didn't have an easier time getting in, it's a lot harder for a black person to get to the place where they're even being considered for a prestigious college than it is for you to get to that place.

If you see a black person with an education from an institute like Harvard, you should think about the additional work they had to do to get there.

And by the way, those kids get the grades necessary to attend these schools. Why would you presume they don't?

But the whole point is that others have been putting in more effort thus the better outcomes.

Your position is/was that black kids put in less effort because racism.

So if black kids are putting in less effort because racism how can you then say they're putting in more work.

If they're trying and not getting in then that's something universities should be doing something about. If they aren't putting in the work universities shouldn't just be expected to accept lower grades. And the solution lies elsewhere.

You can't have it both ways. Either theres no point trying because the game is rigged. Or they're putting in more effort to get to the same position. If the latter then challenge the GPs assertion, instead of tacitly accepting it by saying that black kids aren't trying.

No what? Harder work does not equate to better outcomes, who taught you that?

If you actually read the thread we are in, the reply this is under, which I have requoted, you will see this is on relation to education and study time.

Are you claiming revising for an exam doesn't lead to better outcomes?

Are you claiming that it's the same level of better outcomes regardless of race?

Because you'd be wrong.

> Yes good, because white and asian folks absolutely do have more opportunities than other racial groups, and that’s borne out over and over again, whenever people look into these kinds of things. If you look at academic outcomes, black, hispanic, native american groups are still substantially further behind than white and asian groups.

Group A outperforming Group B does not mean that Group A is being given unfair opportunities. It certainly doesn't justify intentionally, and illegally, giving Group B undeserved opportunities to the detriment of Group A.

It absolutely does mean that group A is being given more opportunities than group B when you realize there is no difference biologically between group A and group B.

Yes, in a world where those two groups have the exact same make up, it would mean that. That's not true at all in this context. There are differences between racial groups. No one is shocked and appalled that Jewish people are hugely over represented as Nobel prize winners, or that black people are wildly over represented in professional sports. It's difficult to disentangle what is just cultural impact, but they're patterns that a child could identify.

If you work from a false premise, you end up with false results. The motivation behind the desire to believe that everyone is equally capable at everything is a good one, and individuals should be treated as if they have equal potential regardless of their immutable characteristics. It would be great if all groups were great at everything. If it were possible, I would make it so. However, falling prey to treating "ought" as "is" leads to pathological behaviors, which is exactly what is happening to the well-intentioned members of this movement.

> There are differences between racial groups.

This is not true, genetically, and if you believe there is, that's a real problem for you.

As for the differences in these communities as a result of differing treatment by others, you're damn right there are differences, and to the degree that those differences are caused by discrimination and hatred (and it's a high degree), that's exactly what we're trying to slowly improve.

The problem with your egalitarian vision is that not everyone starts out on the same level, and if you ignore the systemic ways people are held back, you ruin any shot you might have at getting the end goal you seem to want, which seems to be "may the best person win".

We all want that end result, but until you deal with reality, that's never going to happen.

> if you ignore the systemic ways people are held back

You still haven't explained how any of these people are being held back, though.

I did, in another comment.

But there are cultural differences, which help explain why Asians overachieve academically.

And why do those cultural differences exist? What bonds "black people" together in American culture, despite coming from a whole host of diverse places that otherwise share little to no culture amongst one another?

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