Comment by philsnow | Hacker News Reader

Comment by philsnow | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

> why don’t we do this? The fetishization of the nuclear family, of course, as well as the building and zoning codes that facilitate that fetishization.

Zoning calls them "single family homes" but it doesn't call it "nuclear family homes" or anything like that. Single family homes are more about American individualism[0] and not wanting to share anything if you don't absolutely have to. That's why, outside of at most a couple aberrations like NYC (where multi-generational families live in condos all together or else fragmented around a neighborhood but still within walking/subway distance of each other), we have a fetishized (less so in recent decades) car and road culture and insane density-averse zoning policy instead of shared infrastructure and dense, affordable housing.

[0] or at least, as idolized by those who made the zoning rules so long ago. so... go change them! Get into local office. Get into state office. I'm no iconoclast, but there are definitely some long-standing norms and "traditions" in our society that could stand to go.

> about American individualism[0] and not wanting to share anything if you don't absolutely have to.

I don’t know if this is an American quality specifically. It could just be that Americans can (or used to be able to) afford it, whereas most other people in most other societies never could.

For example, what young married couple would want to live in their parents house if they can afford their own? All of my extended family grew up in intergenerational households because they were poor immigrants who had to make do, but all the cousins became doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc and got their own house.

That is not to say that my cousins would not let their elderly parents stay with them if the need arises, but being financially independent does allow people to do what they want.

> For example, what young married couple would want to live in their parents house if they can afford their own?

Anyone who has kids and sometimes wants a break.

> All of my extended family grew up in intergenerational households because they were poor immigrants who had to make do, but all the cousins became doctors/lawyers/engineers/etc and got their own house.

How much of that is just unconsciously going along with American culture? America is structurally set up to fragment your social relationships, especially among higher achieving, professional people. You go to school and seek jobs across the country, etc.

I’m also an immigrant and I followed the same trajectory. Came to America, was already disconnected from family. Went to school hundreds of miles away, etc. Kind of by accident, I ended up living 10 minutes from my parents, in a neighborhood where most people don’t have a college degree. We’re over at my parents several times a week. And multiple families in my neighborhood have parents in the neighborhood or rent a house from their parents who live nearby.

> Anyone who has kids and sometimes wants a break.

I am quite confident that occasionally having someone watch my kid would not offset the extent to which my parents (or my in-laws) and I would begin to grate on each other.

> Anyone who has kids and sometimes wants a break.

But that does not require living in the same house. Having grandparents a few doors down (my preference) or a few minutes away is good enough for this purpose. Living under the same roof involves a ton more tradeoffs.

> Anyone who has kids and sometimes wants a break

And then there is the lack of privacy. Your parents who came from a different generation trying to tell you how to live your life (ie my parents are very religiously conservative). I would have to deal with my mom and my wife walking on eggshells to not offend each other. I would have to deal with my dad wondering why I would waste money paying people to cut my lawn, etc.

> I would have to deal with my dad wondering why I would waste money paying people to cut my lawn

That can't be the problem that comes to mind when dealing with a parent. I love my parents, but if that's the extent of your annoyance, you got off real real easy.

That’s an example of someone who doesn’t believe in “wasting money on things you can do yourself” and constantly judging our decisions?

Did I mention the whole religious conservative thing and how they would probably grit their teeth when my wife and I would just casually talk about going out to dinner with “her friend and his husband”?

And? Do you have so little ability to cope?

I find it harder and harder to relate to Americans the older I get. I was at my cousin’s wedding recently, and a friend of their family has hassling me for being in a mixed marriage (we’re Bangladeshi, and my wife is an American). I sucked it up and was polite because I put on my big boy pants that day. Blood, and community are more important than abstract ideological debates.

Why should I have to? I made enough money in 1996 when I was making $10/hour as a computer operator so I could move out on my own without dealing with every move I make being judged and asked Sunday morning why am I not going to church.

But guess what your anecdote says? You grinned and put up with it for a day and you went home. Now imagine dealing with that everyday.

But guess how long I would “put up with” anyone - including my parents or any other relatives - questioning who I marry? Yes, I checked my parents for questioning “our choice of friends” - ie a same sex couple

I find it crazy how many people sacrifice their own happiness trying to make their extended family (ie anyone who is not their spouse or minor children) happy.

There is also a reason there is such a brain drain in the US from small towns to larger cities once you go to college and get exposed to the wider world.

Ok fair, I deal with the same thing. I just thought the example was a weak one, if it's only occasional, for why it's tough to be around your parents.

Well it's great that America tested that out so the rest of the world can see how miserable it is. Europe paid attention. Verdict is still out on China and India.

How so? I live in France and "single-family" dwellings are the norm. I don't know anyone living with their extended family.

This is quite interesting, actually. Perhaps it is cultural. My cousins had kids and the grandparents spent all the time with them. My other friends also did the same, once immigration concerns were handled. The positives I can see from the outside are:

1. Childcare is a lot easier with multiple people

2. Experience makes child care much easier

3. Principal-agent problem for child care is absent with grandparents. Grandparents obey parents' choices in broad strokes while providing a high degree of attention.

4. Fulfilling for grandparents

Overall, I'm in my mid 30s and watching the experience of my cousins, part of my desire to get going on the kids thing is that I want my parents to be able to help before they are too old.

Single family homes aren’t the problem, it’s lack of density and mixed-use. Ideally you have single family homes mixed in with condos and apartments, coffee shops, grocery stores, etc. and then you mix in various sizes and configurations so the wealthy CEO is walking their dog at the park and saying hello to the student living in a studio apartment, and they all say hi to the elderly couple sitting on the porch when they bring their kids to school to their neighbor, the teacher.

Taking each of these and creating a “suburban neighborhood” area, a retirement home, a shopping complex, and a school complex and making each of them require a personal vehicle to get to is solely responsible for fucking up America and other Anglosphere countries to a degree.

Exactly, even the areas with the most density in America don't feel the same because of poor zoning laws mostly prohibiting mixed-use areas. The problem with the US is urban planners(is there a single new walkable city since urban planners became a thing?) not density.

> insane density-averse zoning policy

Hell is other people.

I way prefer to live in low density areas and I do. If I can see my neighbours house, that's too close (my neighbours are actually wonderful). I live on the edge of a suburb with a goal to push out further into the rural areas. Where I'm trying to get to is a more commune style property where those that are closest to us can come and stay or live, with shared spaces.

You shouldn't try and push your extroverted views on other people. You can go and live in high density areas with all the potential zombies if you want, but don't make me do that please.

> You can go and live in high density areas with all the potential zombies if you want, but don't make me do that please.

The situation is currently reversed in much of the USA. Building dense housing is forbidden by regulation.

People like you have forced your preference on everyone else.

I didn't vote for that. I just wanna live and let live.

but don't make me do that please.

No one's making you do anything. So sick and tired of seeing this persecution complex, mainly from conservatives. "They're forcing me to eat the bugs! They're forcing me never to own a car! They're forcing me into a pod!" It's the only response you can muster when others with different opinions from yourself discuss different ways of living. Get a life, seriously.

But they always do make you do it eventually, don't they? Govt never gets smaller. Only bigger. They never get rid of laws, only add new ones. Govt never wants less power, only more.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com