Hacker News Reader

Comment by jasonwatkinspdx | Hacker News Reader

No matter the powertrain layout if you lose traction on the front, ie understeer, you need to create a weight shift forward to restore traction.

I've done a couple rally instructional clinics, and one of the introductory drills they spent a fair bit of time on was just a giant circle of cones set up on dirt. You go around it faster and faster until the car breaks free into a slide, then you learn how to control and maintain that slide however you want. All 4 wheels have lost traction but you can still widen or tighten the radius by using weight shifts. Basically, you start steering using the pedals more than the wheel.

So you're not totally screwed if you lose front wheel traction, but this is stuff we don't teach in basic drivers ed classes.

View on HN

In Norway, this is basic driver education. The drivers' license there requires "slippery road" training, which involves a more basic version of what you're describing.

In the land of the free, you can drive with a parent at 15 and get a license at 16 with zero required classes or real world driving test, with just your parent’s signature, a 70% pass rate on a written test and $25. That’s how I got my license in TX at least.

I think this is a bad thing, fwiw. The standards of driver safety training here are incredibly low.

It's like that in America because it has to be. If you required real driving skill from American drivers just to get a license, most of them would fail. It works in some other countries because people there are able to live without a car, and having a car is a luxury. In America, it's a requirement for basic survival in most places because America decided decades ago that it wanted things to be that way, and built everything with that basic assumption.

You can't expect good competency in something like driving from 99% of the public; you're just not going to get it, no matter what it is.

It varies by state, but most of them require either a driving exam or a piece of paper from a drivers education class. Texas is something of an exception in it's general lassie faire posture.

Funny enough, after moving back to Texas from out of the country in which my Texas drivers license expired by 6 months, I was required to take both a written AND a practical driving test. Keep in mind I was nearly 40 years old and had a valid Texas license since I was 16.

Same thing for anybody moving to US (or California at least). No matter what foreign country license you have, if you are moving to California permanently, (not tourist), you need to get a California Licence & foreign license will not give you any discount in process.

I was out of country for 9 years, and when I moved to California from China, they didn’t make me take the driving test since I had a California license before (7 years out date), but I was surprised.

Yes, once you get California Licence, the only time you would drive test again is if you upgrade, can't read charts, health issues, law enforcement reports.

When I moved to Alaska, in my early 40s, with a license in-hand from the state I had just moved from, they made me take a written test before issuing me an AK license. At least they didn't make me take a road test.

Weirdos.

Naw, it's not the exception.

Got my license in California, instructor skipped the freeway part of the drive test which is mandatory.

Moved to Oregon, new licensees require both a written and a drive test but the DMV skipped them both because I already had an out-of-state (California) license.

Driver licenses are literally stupid easy to get here in the US.

I'm in Oregon as well and my understanding is if you have an existing valid license you can skip, but that's different if you've never had one or yours is expired. I had to do a driving test in my mid 20s because I lived car free downtown for a number of years and when my license expired just got an id card as replacement out of laziness.

The handbook did say the driving test could be optional for out-of-state licensees, but it was clear that the written test was mandatory.

The DMV lady who handled my application skipped them both anyway. ┐(￣ー￣)┌

Yeah, Oregon allows you to skip the tests if you have another valid US license.

I got a surprise in CA when I went to the DMV (waited four hours) and then was surprised with a written test. I guess it makes sense.

In California Highway driving for cars is required for special drives only i.e. can't read charts, or tickets.

You would be wrong, the handbook (and presumably the law it derives from) states (or at least stated when I took the test) freeway driving is a mandatory part of the driving test.

I asked the instructor why we skipped it, and they said it was because the freeway portion "is too dangerous for the instructors".

I had a good chuckle that day.

Easy to say one is wrong. I would not argue, but the fact is fact. For car, as long as your vision in 20/40 in each eye, & 20/70 in both, at least, no physical disabilities for car controls, no seizure or medical issues, no law enforcement referrals, you don't need to do freeway drive. Any Yes to any of the above things will warrant a Special Driving Performance Evaluation, and that most probably includes freeway 99% of the time (assuming there's a freeway access), plus some other things.

And for the record, no, no part of the driving test is dangerous for the examiner any more than for anybody sitting as a passenger. Routes are carefully designed to cover as much & as little as law requires, conditions allow, and much more.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/driving-test-criteria...

Texas requires drivers ed and drivers training, like most states, as well as a written exam and a driving test to get a license.

Driving is pretty easy. I was operating heavy farm equipment at 11, and I’m not some sort of mechanical savant.

The maturity to make responsible choices is hard for younger kids. It’s probably smart to set limits to licenses to discourage bad behavior, but be real, some driver testing guy isn’t helping.

There is both a driver's training requirement, and a driving test required. The only "Texas" angle, is that parents are allowed to teach the driver's training portion (44 hours of total behind the wheel instruction). You can cheat that, but if you follow the guidelines it is pretty typical level of instruction for most states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_licenses_in_the_Uni... says you can get a learner’s permit at 14 years old that doesn’t appear to have restrictions in Alaska, Arkansas, and one with restrictions (e.g. only daytime driving, limited # of passengers, only driving to school) in Iowa, Kansas, North Dakota, and South Dakota.

It seems there’s a strong correlation between population density and minimum age one can get a driver’s license.

In Mars, a planet entirely populated by robots, the minimum age for a driver's license is 0

Age wise you are correct, and in California you still need a driving test (although not a super strict one).

We NEED to drive in the US. You can’t make it strict or else we’d kick millions out of the economy.

In 2019 Norway had around 1/4 the fatality rate of the US. (In deaths/distance.)

But in 2000 it had a slightly higher rate than the US.

The road tests did not change, rather Norway changed how its roads are engineered (due to an initiative called Vision Zero!). So I doesn't seem like the more difficult testing actually helps much.

(BTW If you want to lookup numbers be aware most sites quote death/population instead which I find to be a misleading comparison.)

> So I doesn't seem like the more difficult testing actually helps much.

Brazil has a higher rate than the US, but you wouldn’t be able to tell based on the testing there. Mine was:

- Backup parking

- Parallel parking

- Drive around the city with an examiner for a few minutes

Any mistakes in the first two and you’re disqualified. You have to get them right the first time with no corrections (or at least that was the case back in 2007 or so).

For the driving part, you can make two small mistakes. Any critical mistakes immediately disqualify you.

In comparison, in my WA test when I moved here I botched parallel parking 3 times until I got it right. Then I indavertently speeded and also didn’t fully stop at a stop sign (either of which would’ve been a disqualifying mistake in Brazil IIRC). Still got my license.

Nevertheless, I find it MUCH safer to drive in the US (WA in particular, the only place where I’ve ever seen folks consistently driving at or below the speed limit). Brazilian drivers are crazy aggressive and in a lot of places traffic rules are treated as mere suggestions.

I only had one driving test when I was 15 in Mississippi. Drive around the court house block, no parallel parking. I moved to Washington the next year and only had to take the written test, and I’ve seen to be able to miss driver tests ever since even though my license has lapsed twice, the last time for 7 years.

I’m now back in Washington (Seattle), and I’m shocked at how often people run stop signs here.

And despite the easy testing I suspect you have not had any major traffic incidents.

That seems to be the way it goes in the US.

Running stop signs is not a sign of a bad driver, most stop signs in the US are not necessary (and really should be yield signs, except that's not legal to do that for no good reason).

Running a stop sign is a sign of a bad driver when I'm walking into the crosswalk assuming they'll just stop.

Good old zero vision. It is being adopted all over the US now with tragic results for pedestrians and drivers. It's not in your head, the traffic lights are being changed to make you crazy. I both cycle and drive, and zero vision strikes an odd balance of making everything worse, except very specific urban environments such as Stockholm.

I'm not sure we can draw much of a conclusion from the accident data, since as you point out, there are confounding variables.

If anything it points to US drivers being even better than Norway since they can drive without such initiatives.

Perhaps that why Norway has such a hard test - they need it!

I've done a course like that but i question the value. The few hours i spent sliding around on a slippery track 10 years ago didn't really embedd the skills to the point that i would know what to do if my cars got in a slide today. Most people don't get into situations like that enough to train the skills regularly.

Living in a place where it snows has done a lot more for my skills. I would recommend to anyone that they find an empty, snowy parking lot and try throwing their car around a little just to see how it reacts.

That works great until the police show up, sadly. Definitely wish there was some way of doing that legally...

Wow! This is nice and should be must. In India, we get our driver's license along with the local street food snacks.

My father has a story about this that I think involved driving straight down a frontage road for a couple of minutes and a bribe.

That sounds really useful! I did something at a lower level, it was basically “defensive driving for teens” (I was 28 and twice the age of everyone else there, lol). It was run by a former racing car instructor in Phoenix and they had a FWD skid car that we practiced on. I was a pretty confident driver before the class but still found it very difficult to control coming out of the skid. I’ve been wanting to take a refresher to see if I’d handle it any better but haven’t found any classes near me, I should check for rally clinics

Where did you find this rally clinic?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com