Comment by clarkevans | Hacker News Reader

Comment by clarkevans | Hacker News Reader

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Yes, _but_ I think her article properly frames her mind-set, she is young (early/mid 20's) and may yet experience what PyLadies and other related groups seek to discuss:

1) She doesn't have much corporate experience yet, and is drawing conclusions based on her limited experience.

2) She's not in a position of authority... sexism really shows its ugly face when there are power differentials where the woman is on top.

3) She's not yet of an age where child bearing is typically discussed, once she hits her 30's she'll have to deal with this regardless if she wants to have children.

4) Just because you're female doesn't mean you arn't sexist.

As others have pointed out, it is a very small minority of problem people. However, they can have a very adverse affect on an individual woman and her career. Sexism is something we should all be actively aware of and do our best to counter when we see it. It only takes a few corrections (by a male colleagues) to address some of the more prevalent issues -- but you have to do it or the sexism will persist.

To adapt a well-known quote by Irving Kristol: Being prejudiced is to preconceive reality. This is why sexism, racism, etc. are bad, they load prior probabilities to our minds that may not be applicable to the person that we're dealing with.

In your comment, you've painted a picture of the OP as a naive (if somewhat dimwitted, for not understanding life's basics) girl who doesn't have a child, not in a position of authority, etc. whereas in reality you don't know if these are true of her. The only thing she mentions in her post is that she's been in the "IT industry for a few years". For all I know, she may be married with two kids, leading a small project.

So, in chastising her for the sexism you perceived, you commit the same basic sin, your comment is very condescending. I would rather have a well-meaning colleague call me a girl, rather than having someone write this comment about me.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing is not uncommon on HN, people react to certain thing in such a way that on a more basic level invalidates their point. A recent example was the debate on reddit's removal of certain subreddits, where people, who normally are against censorship, SOPA, etc., were very pleased that some "pedos" now cannot get their fix. In many cases I think this happens (I'm not saying this applies to you, too) because people hold a bunch of attitudes without analyzing them to arrive at an axiomatic set of beliefs. The unexamined belief is not worth having.

Thank you. Your critique is well received. I edited the earlier comment to address tone.

Perhaps I will understand things a better as things move along. It is true that I have only had three jobs so far, which isn't many, compared to many of the people here.

This article is really about talking to males at work about geeky stuff and that we don't have to feel so special. Regarding childbearing, all women in other industries have to do it too, and there doesn't seem to be MathTeacherLadies or groups talking about this kind of things. We are sitting in front of a computer all day long, like many other office jobs, and those other industries have male and female workers working in the same office too, why is IT so strange and special?

Sexism is a problem in workplaces across all industries, and I do, as most others, hope the occurrences of such horrid incidents will gradually disappear over time.

All I wanted to say in the article was, in IT, being male or female does not, and should not matter. At work, as a female, one CAN join in nice conversations with males. A female geek does not have to talk to a female geek about geeky things. That's the only thing. I did not intend to refer to sexism. It was not the original intent of the article. If I have offended you with my article, I sincerely apologise.

Dear lorettahe, from your replies to some comments here I got a sense that you give in a bit too easily to (perceived) "authority". Look at you, you are (probably) young and already have three high profile jobs (as we see from your LinkeIn profile). I'm 40+ and have had only one job so far. So while making use of experiences and advice offered by other people also filter them: not everyone on HN is wiser or more experienced than you.

When other people offer "rules" like don't use this word, don't do this or that, think for yourself rather than taking hythloday's, clarevans' or my comments at face value: Why is it wrong to use girl, what are the causes of sexism in the workplace, what evidence or arguments do these people offer. For me, a big part of what separates hackers from the masses is this questioning of authority , curiosity, and thinking for ourselves. I wonderful book in this regard is Christopher Hitchens' Letters to a Contrarian.

</jedi_master_mode>

P.S. And do submit stories and comment more often on HN!

You didn't offend me at all. I just have a 2 year old daughter and I've seen first hand things that I never want her to have to experience. So, I'm selfish that way.

I'm specifically responding to the last paragraph in your post where you're characterizing PyLadies as a "strange female programmer group". I'm absolutely certain most members of PyLadies are quite comfortable "talking to guys". This isn't about inability of some women to work as a programmer in a male dominated hierarchy. This isn't about the vast majority of nerds in software development. It is about power dynamics that will impact your career.

Perhaps I.T. is "strange and special" for women because technologists, in general, tend to have more leverage with regard to management/owners than in other industries.

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