Comment by willbudd | Hacker News Reader

Comment by willbudd | Hacker News Reader

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I feel like you and all the people replying to you are completely missing the obvious. To someone who has been depressed for many years, for someone who literally (according the article) contemplated jumping of the roof of a 10 story building, "probably dying at some point" is not a deal-breaker or even all that much of a downside per se.

We're all going to die at some point, and while most/many of us might want to delay that inevitability as much as possible, I don't think it's warranted at all to assume that the same premise applies to every single one of us. This guy realized that the only thing in life he could truly enjoy was climbing rocks. Do we really need to fault him for deciding to then just do that thing until fate eventually catches up as it always does?

Sure, it may be rough on the people whose lives they intersect with, but provided they're not a parent raising a child/children/etc, acceptance of one another for who we are is all that remains. Personally, I'd take short-lived good company over long-lived mediocre company any day.

> is not a deal-breaker or even all that much of a downside per se.

Close, but I don't think you quite get it yet.

It's not about "no downside"! That completely misunderstands. It's about a HUGE upside. It dials in your mental space and all the negative thoughts flood away. You're present in the moment. It's like being on a hard drug, but you feel clean and clear-headed instead of hung over afterward. You feel a lot better about life for days or even weeks at a time. You do it because NOT doing it might just kill you. Free solo today, or shoot yourself in the back of your car at the firepit tonight. And it's not about the risk, and it's not adernaline. It's the focus and calm. Does that make sense? I think it's really hard to understand if you haven't experienced suicidal thoughts for most of your life.

I haven't talked to very many free soloists who haven't made the point that they're horrendously depressed/suicidal and that they do it to live, not to die. Sometimes. Normally the ones who do "quite safe soloing" -- way below their grade, on well-known routes, etc. etc.

The article isn't just about Austin. It's about a lot of people. And not just climbers. Similar dark shit in skiing, mountaineering, dirt biking, and so on.

> Personally, I'd take short-lived good company over long-lived mediocre company any day.

I've never met an irresponsible soloist who wasn't a beautiful soul.

It sounds both quite beautiful but also quite sad at the same time. I feel like it describes my experience when riding a motorcycle. Not as high as climbing, I guess, but much easier to add to any day of the week for short or long runs.

I owned a motorcycle for some years, but then sold it. Years later, when I got diagnosed with cancer*, I broke up with my then girlfriend (not a healthy relationship) and bought a new 1000ccm sports bike. That was a big tipping point in my life. I went from depressive moments with thoughts of "I want to die" to depressive moments of "I hate this, I want out, but I want to live". The motorcycle gives me freedom I don't feel in a car, makes my head clear up, and I feel happier after. I guess most of the change in thought patterns was because of the Cancer looking-over-the-edge-at-death experience, but the motorcycle adds life quality in daily life that is worth the risk. So, a bit like climbing? *shrug*

*- I'm fine now. :)

It's interesting that you mention it. I'm interested ocean sailing simply becuase it gives me something to actually focus on and do. I feel that if I'm not actively struggling against nature I have too much brain spurious brain activity.

I climb (sometimes without protection), my father motorcycles.

Both of us think the other guy is gonna fucking die.

Both of us don’t really see our preferred routine dance with death as all that risky. It brings a kind of clarity.

> It dials in your mental space and all the negative thoughts flood away. You're present in the moment [...] You feel a lot better about life for days or even weeks at a time [...] the focus and calm. Does that make sense?

I think you nailed it here. A lot of our mental issues are made so much worse by twisting them in this abstract world in our minds. Doing something that is so pure and requires you to be 100% in the moment kind of destroys all of that and pulls you back to reality, it can really put things into perspective.

> It's not about "no downside"! That completely misunderstands. It's about a HUGE upside.

Let's compromise and say it's both? You're right that the upper bound experienced may be a lot higher than most may realize, but it's also true that the lower bound may no longer seem that deep of an abyss as it appears to most. Hence the mental equilibrium in-between being at a point that can seem somewhat alien to those who live more slow-burning lives.

> but it's also true that the lower bound may no longer seem that deep of an abyss as it appears to most.

> Hence the mental equilibrium in-between being at a point that can seem somewhat alien to those who live more slow-burning lives.

I suppose that requires a profound amount of empathy from both perspectives. And even with infinite empathy, at the end of the day, it's still two aliens staring at one another across a chasm.

Sounds like an addiction, which is never good.

Yes, it's a lot like an addiction. Perhaps literally.

This also gets talked about in climbing quite a bit -- people who find their path out of alcoholism or other drug use and into climbing. I'll emphasize that this is now about climbing in general, not free soloing per se.

Climbing (especially with protection) is healthier than drug addiction, in some sense. But it's displacing one addiction with another. Or introducing addiction as a coping mechanism, in the case where the pain doesn't originate from another pre-existing addiction.

But sometimes cope is healthier than the alternative, and coping can play an important role in "getting you through to the other side". As long as you do actually make it through, of course, both in terms of not dying and in terms of getting to a healthier place where you don't need the coping mechanism.

> I've never met an irresponsible soloist who wasn't a beautiful soul.

Romanticizing suicide is gross.

Demonizing people connecting with one another through shared pain is even worse.

Explicit suicide, while every adult's human right (in my view), is not precisely congruent with irresponsibly climbing things.

There is an inequality between doing something explicitly to die and doing something that may cause death but probably, usually won't.

Equating them is a mistake.

Maybe the probability of dying per climb is only a few percent. But probably goes up as the climber gets older. And if you are exposed to that high risk repeatedly, it's almost certain to kill you eventually.

Of course everyone dies eventually, but I'm guessing the life expectancy of free soloers is significantly below average.

Once you get beyond measuring the extremes like childhood & maternal mortality I think life expectancy is such a dumb stat, especially in developed countries where we rarely lead subsistence lifestyles. It should be about the contents of your life, and if you love climbing so much that you keep free-soloing to the age that it literally kills you I can't accept that as any sadder than quitting and then dying of old age.

If you do something potentially fatal enough times then fatality becomes a statistical certainty, just like Russian roulette.

Quite - free soloing and eating bacon are on the same scale just at opposite ends of it.

Neither can really be classed as committing suicide - it has an explicitly different intent.

"they died doing what they love" is often used to soften the blow of someone's death for those left behind.

Is there not some sort of romanticism in choosing how one dies?

This rings true to me. I improved my surfing most at a point in my life where drowning didn’t really worry me. Not because it was less likely, but because I was at a point where I didn’t care much if I died.

It meant I dropped in on waves well beyond my skill level. I had lots of near misses but learnt heaps from the ones I caught.

I’m thankful I no longer feel that way, I want to stick around for those around me. Now I’m content on smaller waves and take a lot less risks in all aspects of life.

Curious what wave you are riding where drowning was a potential outcome in your mind? I’ve been stuck on the outside too scared to catch a monster in, but drowning never crossed my mind just getting the beat down and getting washed in or sucked back out and Potentially having to paddle some miles to a place that would be easier to get in. Dark with no moon would be unwelcome in that situation.

Many of our local offshore breaks in Western Australia have drowning as a potential outcome as a result of being beaten unconscious or washed under reef ledges.

It's rare but it happens at more or less the same frequency as fatal shark attacks - not often, but memorable.

eg: The Right

https://youtu.be/xjHaFOGBPzk?t=326

Yep that is a “serious” wave, thanks for sharing

As the other commenter noted, the waves where I was really afraid had some combination of shallow reefs or sandbars and strong currents. I’ve had a couple friends break their necks/backs at these places, but on milder days where it’s easy to get rescued and there are lots of people around. When I was in my darkest times I wouldn’t hesitate to paddle out by myself at these spots and take off too early/too late and hope for the best.

Honestly I never rode anything too gnarly, but I definitely was too much of a kook for some of them. Maybe I was overestimating the danger and it was beneficial overall?

Based on my limited knowledge, many of the greats went through the same thing you did.

Thanks for putting things in perspective.

Unless you are Japanese, that’s probably not the prevailing culture. For the vast majority of people suicide is seen as a mental illness that should be treated, potentially by force, not as an individual choice. Because a person suffering from mental illness by definition does not have full agency over their decisions. Even the idea of allowing suicide for terminally ill people is controversial (although it’s something I personally support).

In the past, suicide was viewed as immoral and criminal. We have moved past that, not because suicide is more socially acceptable, but because of a desire to more easily help people suffering from mental illness.

Regardless of what cultural category may or may not apply, I find that line of thought rather unconstructive. This isn't about being anyone's opinion on suicide like some black and white binary stance whether you're "for" or "against". This is about coming to terms with your own mortality.

It's about the grey area in-between the extremes of committing suicide (the "black"), and forever running away from risk so that you can die of cancer while undergoing chemotherapy and getting your diapers changed in an elderly home (the "white"(?)).

And if even discussing the topic in those terms touches on some kind of taboo, then yes; perhaps you're right to emphasize the cultural component involved.

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