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Comment by Loughla | Hacker News Reader

Why the quotes? Are you saying that people being guided to quit smoking isn't good for them? I'm confused.

Would you submit to be guided (by force) away from any suboptimal for your health behavior you might currently engage in?

Losing weight? Absolutely.

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Why is it that whenever people suggest any kind of nudge that might be helpful to society, the immediate response is to take it to a totalitarian nightmare. Don't get me wrong; I think the government should leave people alone as much as possible. But jumping straight onto the slippery slope seems like a thought-terminating cliché — rather than leading to an actual discussion about how best to manage individual freedoms while living in a society. (and no, the answer is not "everybody is free to do everything" just as it isn't "nanny state knows best; eat your veggies or else")

>Why is it that whenever people suggest any kind of nudge that might be helpful to society, the immediate response is to take it to a totalitarian nightmare.

Perhaps because those nudges are already a totalitarian nightmare. People should control the government, not the other way around, and definitely not their personal lives and habbits.

The prohibition or the "war on drugs" weren't some made up fantasy nightmare, but very real history of a totalitarian nightmare.

Oh thank god, I’ll have so much more free time.

Why wouldn't I?

You absolutely should.

Freedom loving adults on the other hand like to decide for themselves the amount of fun but harmful behaviors they like to have...

You enjoy having fun on occasion.

Because experts of the day are often wrong. 100 years ago Hitler had some expert opinions that later we reject.

Don't be the next agent orange victim. Question things.

Paging Godwin.

Yes, an idiot said something on usenet for fun and now it's considered a "counter-argument"

Paging: Bueller? Bueller?

You should have used the example of the fats and sugar lies peddled by the fats and sugar lobbies as the cause of fatness.

> Question things

But why should I?

Because you are being lied to and used

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I'm saying that third parties like states deciding what is or isn't "for the benefit" of the people (as opposed to being told what the people want) is not good for them. It's crossing boundaries and it's infantilizing.

For two cases where it's gone horribly wrong consider the prohibition and the "war on drugs". Not to mention the "don't eat fat" campaigns...

> as opposed to being told what the people want

If a majority of people in a country want smoking to be disincentivized, and the government acts on that, is it still crossing boundaries and infantilizing?

> Not to mention the "don't eat fat" campaigns...

Bad example, as it turns out that eating a regular amout of fat is fine. The gov't was wrong.

Here's a better example: food corporations actively market sugar-filled cereals, "juices", "fruit snacks", etc to both parents and kids, actively misleading them on what a healthy human diet is. This had contributed to a surge in obesity and all the related health problems. This puts strain on the medical system, raises insurance premiums, and generally makes society worse.

So do I support making it harder for corporations to market their HFC garbage to kids and parents? Hell yes. Do I support making it illegal for tobacco corps to market to kids? Yes again. And I say this as someone who enjoys sugar and smoking, to a reasonable degree.

>If a majority of people in a country want smoking to be disincentivized, and the government acts on that, is it still crossing boundaries and infantilizing?

Yes.

> third parties like states deciding what is or isn't "for the benefit" of the people (as opposed to being told what the people want)

I'm gonna keep picking on this point.

The majority of people want regulation on a variety of things.

It's infantalizing for you to claim that they aren't consciously choosing that.

Regulation is not the same as nudges towards personal health and discouragment-taxation towards "what's good for you".

>It's infantalizing for you to claim that they aren't consciously choosing that.

The "majority of people" aren't even asked about things like this, and they're constantly lied to and betrayed on the subject of electoral promises of all kinds, even on way more major issues. Not to mention being treated like cattle that needs to be "told what to want" and to be whipped into shape by technocrats and policy advisors.

So, invoking what the government does as a proxy of "what people wants" is very shaky grounds...

To be frank, alcohol, most drugs, and fat are not the same. Every time I go to a place where smoking is not culturally frowned upon, I can't make a few steps without inhaling vomit-inducing smoke. If it wasn't for this, then I would agree with you.

If not the state, the free market will fill the gap and tell us what is for our own benefit, bet a lot more boundaries get crossed when the tobacco industry, pharmaceutical industry etc. get free reign.

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