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Comment by jasode | Hacker News Reader

>I am somewhat surprised that there aren't more cheap-living communes in the US. A few thousand dollars could probably pay the living expenses of a few dozen people – assuming they are all on-board with such a materially minimalist lifestyle.

A monastery of nuns or monks is something like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosed_religious_orders

Even though the members live a minimal lifestyle of near-poverty, many monasteries are still not truly financially self-sufficient because their funding comes from an associated church's donations.

Amish communities may be an example of lower-cost living while being financially self-sufficient via selling crafts and furniture. (They're even financially independent enough to be exempt from paying and receiving government Social Security money.) It would be interesting to know of other communities that deliberately replicated Amish living (for cost/benefits) without being Amish.

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One thing everyone forgets is that the Amish people benefit from police and national defence, like everyone else. Their simple, peaceful life would not be possible if they comprised their own sovereign nation in a region surrounded by hostile actors. With no military of their own, they’d be annexed instantly.

This means they aren’t truly independent. They’re dependent in a way they could never afford to pay for themselves. They get by as free riders while everyone else pays for them.

> One thing everyone forgets is that the Amish people benefit from police and national defence, like everyone else.

Leaving aside the dubious benefits of police, Amish pay the same taxes as everyone else- with the exception of Social Security and workers' compensation, which they pay through their church. Those taxes entitle the Amish to their share of the national defense buff.

https://marketrealist.com/p/do-amish-pay-taxes/

> This means they aren’t truly independent. They’re dependent in a way they could never afford to pay for themselves.

That would seem to describe most, if not all, citizens of contemporary societies. Could you name someone who you consider truly independent? As the saying goes, "No man is an island."

This is only partly true. By opting out of most of the financial system and deliberately living on small normal incomes. They will pay very little tax and certainly not enough to pay for investment and healthcare national infrastructure projects which effectively underwrite the income they get from outside their communities. There’s no free lunch here. They do benefit from things they could not afford if they lived isolated from the mainstream US economy

Not aiming for $$$ is literally tax avoidance!

They pay income and sales taxes. They don't pay social security taxes but they also aren't eligible for the benefits.

Do they claim to be truly independent? Or just to operate in the way they want to inside the same system as everyone else?

The relevant comparison here is to other citizens, not to other states.

I don't think it matters what they claim or don't claim. The way to evaluate the position is to imagine what the US would be like if 100% of its population lived in Amish communities, with an Amish lifestyle and religion+ideology.

Yes, this hypothetical country would be peaceful and immune to the (justified) criticism the US receives over its intervention in foreign wars. However, think of all it (and the world) would lose. The rest of NATO would have to invest way more in defence in order to hold off Russia and China. The rest of the world would have to invest a huge amount in R&D for things like medicine and technology. And the only thing keeping this hypothetical "Amish United States" from being invaded are the oceans.

It's hard to take these sorts of counterfactuals too far though. On the one hand I might say "then the drug cartels in Mexico could invade the Amish United States and enslave everyone" but then it would also be equally valid to say the cartels would never exist in the first place if it weren't for drug prohibition and the demand for illegal drugs in the US. Still, I don't see how one big Amish nation would defend itself from gangs moving in and stealing everything they've got and enslaving people.

The way to evaluate the position is to imagine what the US would be like if 100% of its population lived in Amish communities, with an Amish lifestyle and religion+ideology.

No, it isn't, and that's not how game theory works. No one is suggesting that everyone be Amish, and it seems fairly obvious that the Amish would act differently (e.g., invest in self defense) if that were the case.

If they act differently then they are by definition no longer Amish. They have a very strict interpretation of their religion that depends on wider society to preserve their independence. That’s the point!

It's likely that the Amish wouldn't be terribly concerned if they were annexed by Canada or whomever.

The Amish originally came to North America fleeing persecution in Europe.

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