Comment by greggman | Hacker News Reader

Comment by greggman | Hacker News Reader

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I agree with you and I'm really surprised in 15 years, or how over old PHP is, THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE ALTERNATIVE!!

Why? For PHP I sign up for one of the million LAMP ISPs, I upload a .php file with .php embedded in HTML and I'm done.

Where's the Ruby version of this? The Python version? The JavaScript version? The Perl version? THEY DON'T EXIST. You wanna use Perl or Python. You either have to use slow slow cgi or you have to RUN YOUR OWN SERVER. (virtually or otherwise)

PHP sucks, I hate it. I don't code in it unless I absolutely have to. But it's not the language that makes it popular. It's the combination of pre-installed + no setup + plus faster than cgi + works on a shared host + inline templating that's made it popular.

mod_perl? mod_python? As far as I understand them they're not useful on shared web servers so they don't fit the niche PHP is filling. Node? Ruby? They are the server rather than a plugin for apache. Again, not filling the same niche.

Someone with some chutzpah needs to step up and bring the EXACT SAME COMBINATION OF FEATURES except with a different language to the Web. They can be rich writing books and running conferences.

--

Ok, now, I suspect most would want this to be in Python or Ruby but I'd argue if you really want it to succeed make it JavaScript. Because most PHP programmers have to learn JavaScript as well for their webpages. Less to learn = more likely to succeed.

But honestly, if anyone could get any of those languages to fill the niche PHP is providing it would be a huge boon over today.

We don't WANT to replicate PHP's deployment model! It's hard to scale, it's hard to configure, it's hard to secure, it's hard to make work across different web servers. It's convenient for newcomers, sure, but even for something like phpbb the model is strained. We need better deployment tools, not worse forms of deployment.

> Where's the Ruby version of this? The Python version? The JavaScript version?

heroku ? you don't even have to upload anything manually, a single command deploys your app.

That's not the same level of beginner friendly.

With PHP, you have a file with a .php file suffix on your server.

That file has code in it. Navigate to that file on your browser. You have a dynamic website.

No installation of external programs is necessary. No terminal. Often, you don't even need an FTP client, since you can use your hosting provider's GUI.

That blinding level of simplicity gets the non-programmer started in under an hour.

To run Heroku (on a Mac), you need to download (1.8GB) and install XCode (or another version of GCC for Mac, but the moment you say GCC, the beginner's eyes glaze over). Once you install XCode, you need to open up terminal (no GUI). Then you install homebrew in order to install the dependencies that Heroku tools require (some JSON libs, if I recall). Once that's installed, you need to install the heroku cli tools. Now you can deploy your heroku app, which requires registering (or, in the case of beginners, generating) ssh keys.

Every single one of those steps is too difficult for the beginner. That is why PHP wins.

Sadly you are right. Ruby has no equivalent and Rails especially is not for beginners.

man, you can use pagodabox and go from dev to prod with one line of code as well.

mod_python was notoriously unstable and is now disgustingly obsolete, it has been replaced by mod_wsgi for some years now (with the additional advantage that apps which work on mod_wsgi will work on many other servers).

The reason you have trouble deploying Python is purely that the hosts you are trying to use CHOOSE not to support it.

You can get really excellent, easy $10/mo Python hosting but if you ask for 'free,' beggars can't be choosers, so you will get whatever they feel like giving you. This is not a function of the underlying technology.

Don't blame other languages if you have not ever figured out how to do anything other than PHP

You can get really excellent, easy $10/mo Python hosting but if you ask for 'free,' beggars can't be choosers, so you will get whatever they feel like giving you. This is not a function of the underlying technology.

Well this is why I guess php wins. Because the other communities have complete disregard for what the common newbie considers valuable.

The question is whether something matches php's economic model. If the answer is no, its no.

You can get the hosting for $x/mo is not an answer nor a solution for most people.

Instead of blaming "the other communities" blame the web hosts which decide that they only like to support PHP out of the box. Many other languages can be made easy to deploy on shared hosting, it is up to the host to actually do so. Nobody can force them.

> You can get really excellent, easy $10/mo Python hosting...

Any recommendations? I need one for a small biz (in the US), so this is a serious question. I would pay 2-3x that much for a "really excellent" platform I could build a business site on without having to be the entire sys admin.)

Webfaction[1] is really quite good, and well inside your budget. It's shared hosting, but it's good shared hosting, and they're very Python friendly. One click to create a Django app, and you can easily install your own frameworks and stuff. Depending on what your neighbors are doing you may get varying performance, but what can you do?

If you need more reliability than shared hosting can give you, then you either head into the VPS/IaaS/dedicated space (and need to do your own sys admin stuff), or you head into the GAE/Heroku/PaaS space (and need to pay a lot more).

There are always tradeoffs. :) (And no, I have no reason to recommend them other than being a happy customer. <shameless>...unless you want to use my affiliate link[2] to sign up, of course.</shameless>)

[1]: http://www.webfaction.com

[2]: http://www.webfaction.com?affiliate=chaos

The Perl equivalent to the PHP model (request handler entry point is already your template) is called Mason. It's had a pretty huge customer for about a decade now.

http://www.masonhq.com/?AmazonDotCom

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