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Comment by clouddrover | Hacker News Reader

> Volkswagen Group, which also owns Audi, Porsche, and Scout Motors, is finally doing what nearly every other automaker has already done: announce its intention to adopt Tesla’s electric vehicle charging standard.

The reporting around this has been so poor. NACS is CCS with Tesla's plug on the end.

What's happening is that CCS has won the EV charging protocol wars, Tesla's plug is being standardized as CCS type 3 (aka SAE J3400), and Tesla's chargers will use the CCS protocol (like they already do in Europe and elsewhere).

To use NACS chargers older Teslas will need a CCS retrofit:

https://electrek.co/2023/02/28/tesla-ccs-adapter-retrofit-pr...

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When people talk about standardizing the charge port they’re talking about the shape of the port not the protocol. Tesla has supported the CCS protocol for years now.

The Tesla port is vastly superior to the CCS type 1 port. They should get credit for making it an open standard.

No one is installing CCS1 any more surely?

I think they will keep installing them for another few years. NEVI requires it and there are still quite a few CCS1 cars on the road. All of the cars that are switching will still ship with the CCS1 port next year too. They don't fully switch until 2025.

CCS1 is still dominate in North America. CCS2 only got traction in Europe.

Yes, people aren't aware of what's happening. That's a consequence of lazy reporting.

Tesla's charging standard is being dropped and CCS will be used by everyone. It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling to look forward to.

Europe really got EV charging standardization right. The European EV infrastructure is much further advanced than the North American infrastructure thanks in part to sensible standardization.

Stop misleading people.

The opposite is happening. Tesla is opening their network to other brands. Ford and a few other car makers have already agreed. In new cars made from 2025, you can go to the only properly working charging network, plug in the car, and leave with no credit card hustle. Basically, like Tesla had forever.

It's a shame other brands didn't adopt a much better Tesla adapter as a standard. It's much more convenient and light.

I've seen how adapters work; they work badly and are glitchy. So, if someone buys a car with an old port in 2024, they will start to see lots of pain in 2025.

I'm not sure what you mean w/r/t the adapters. It sounds like most manufacturers will just use Tesla supplied adapters. I doubt they will be very bulky. They might even be easier to use than native CCS1. :)

> Tesla is opening their network to other brands.

By implementing CCS. How do you think it works in Europe right now? They all use CCS, both cars and chargers. Tesla included.

NACS is protocol agnostic. Cars in Europe have different plugs.

Tesla will use their protocol and support CCS on chargers.

What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced.

New cars will be able to see on the map how many stalls are available etc.

Payments integration etc.

It's a far more deeper integration and I guess that's the real big deal that needs to be standardized.

Tesla got the best-in-class charging experience, and finally, in 1 year, other brands can have somewhat matching capabilities.

> NACS is protocol agnostic.

Yes, it's just a plug on the end of a CCS charger.

> What Tesla offers to other brands in North America is much more advanced.

They're offering CCS. It's how it works whether you like it or not.

> It's a shame North America still has years of plug incompatibilities and adapter fiddling

Not really, Tesla has over 24k charging stalls in the US. The second biggest is Electrify America, and they have only 3,800 charging stalls. There really aren't a lot of EV chargers that are non-tesla in the US, unlike the EU.

There are 7,869 locations and 15,661 CCS ports in the US and Canada (versus 2,297 locations and 25,247 Tesla ports):

https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html

It's plugs on chargers and inlets on cars. It'll be a slow and tedious process.

TBH, the afdc data badly overstates the number of available locations. Not only do they include a lot of broken or otherwise inaccessible locations, but they include things like this: https://www.plugshare.com/location/1564

I think that currently holds the record for the slowest DCFC in the country. :)

> max 13A, 4kW

Wow! You'd get a better charge from a standard 15A 110V AC plug.

No, you want to compare Watts, not Volts, as Watts measures power and Volts is just potential.

A 15A 110V outlet can supply 1500W continuous (1.5kW). A 4kW DC charger is almost three times higher power than this.

I didn’t include the crappy L2 destination chargers, of which there are a whole lot more of that support teslas.

I was referring to the L3 superchargers / fast chargers or equivalent. The majority of the ones you linked are L2 chargers are are not that useful outside of destination charging.

That is DC fast chargers. If you include J1772 AC chargers in the count the numbers are 66,093 locations and 146,206 ports.

It sounds like you’re talking about DCFC. AC chargers are much more common and they are predominantly using the J1772 connector today.

It's the opposite. Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit. Read the article you shared. It's for use on other charging stations.

In the picture, you see a dead charger adapter converted into a new Tesla standard one. It's a major pain for other brand EV owners

In 1 year, almost at every charging station, you will have to deal with plugging converters in snow, rain, etc, making sure communication works.

> Every single EV car that is sold right now in North America except Tesla will need a retrofit.

No, they won't need a new ECU because they are already CCS cars. They'll need a dumb adapter if they can't get a new inlet installed.

I expect a degree of intelligence to be important in the adapter. Specifically, unless the adapter is rated for the highest possible current and voltage that the physical form factor can support (1kV, 600A? Is there even a pre-ordained limit? Tesla reports that they’ve tested NACS up to quite impressive voltages and currents.), then the adapter needs to tell the car and/or charger to limit voltage and current. Otherwise it risks arcing and/or overheating.

Also, whatever water cooling magic keeps the charger plug and its terminals cool won’t cool the adapter.

Even the little charge-a-J1772-car-off-a-Tesla-level-2-charger hack adapters are generally dumb adapters designed for 40A or so and are not safe if connected to a full-spec 80A EVSE.

Isn't that negotiation already part of the CCS protocol? Otherwise 400v cars would be fried when they end up getting 800v from an L3 charger, or a Bolt would end up getting 300kW that it can't actually use

Yes, but if there’s a dumb adapter between the car and the charger, how do the car and charger know it’s there and know its current and voltage limits (which may be less than the car’s)?

Can't you just buy the right adapter for your car/? I think that's how TeslaTap does it, they sell a few different amp options.

Or is the issue trusting people to buy the right one?

> I expect a degree of intelligence to be important in the adapter.

No, that's done by the car. The adapter just changes the shape of the plug.

The car controls the charge curve.

> The car controls the charge curve.

Exactly. If a car uses an 800V battery and can charge at 500A, and the charger can supply 500A at 800V, and the adapter is only rated for 150A, something needs to tell the car not to draw more than 150A. Similarly, an adapter rated at 400V that is used with an 800V car needs to tell the car or charger not to charge at 800V (which may mean not charging at all).

All parts of the charging chain have temperature sensors (charger, cable, plug, adapter, inlet, battery). If they overheat they'll derate.

If your car can pull 500 amps then you should get an adapter rated for 500 amps. Here's an example:

https://a2zevshop.com/products/nacs-ccs1

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