More seriously though I do think there are benefits to city living if that's a lifestyle you want, but saving money is almost never one of them unless you have a job where you can make a LOT more living in the city, which sort of by definition means you're not going to be working remotely.
You haven't specified where you live, but from the details you've written, we can narrow it down far enough to safely conclude that you're not living in a place that's designed to support a car-free lifestyle.
I have lived for over fifteen years without a car. Not only do I not miss it, but I'd pay to be able to live like this. I can rent a car whenever I need it (something like once or twice a year) and the total annual cost is a fraction of what a monthly car payment would be almost anywhere in the country: gas, financing, repairs, fees, other expenses, etc. all add up to way more than people realize[0].
When you're living in a place that's designed with cars in mind, it's hard to imagine living comfortably without it, but when you're living in a place that's designed for other means of transportation, it's hard to imagine ever going back to cars.
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/business/car-...
Being born in a place is a lottery with random chance deciding the rules for you. Sure, as an adult, you can potentially choose to leave for the less green pasture and live in an urban environment of city designed for other means of transpo if you're one that doesn't mind moving away from their entire familial support structure. Not say it can't be done, but people just assume these decisions are something people are willing to make just because they did. It's nonsensical.
Nobody in this subthread is saying anything to that effect. This thread was prompted by someone asking why anyone would want to live in a [car-free] urban environment in the first place. The ability to do so is implied by the question, not something being prescribed by edict.
I think this is obviously the crux of the issue. It depends on what you do and what your love. I would be renting a car/truck 2-3x a week based on my interests and passions.
I would like not having to drive to work, but would rather give up those 1.5 hours a day than everything else my vehicle lets me do.
that said, i support letting people chose for themselves.
Do you have on-demand car sharing in your city? Like Zipcar or similar? You could go on a heck of a lot of hardware store trips in one of these cars for the price of a car payment + parking + insurance + taxes + maintenance.
I think you're replying to the wrong person. I do use Zipcar on the rare occasion that I need a car. It's way cheaper than car ownership (not even including parking).
I love how those not wanting the city life is just looked down upon by those that are. But that's okay, I think those that live in the city are kind of just weird for similarly petty things
I've lived in a high-rise in a city and on acres in a rural area. I vastly prefer the latter. Right now, I live on about 1/5 acre in the edge of a proper city, which is a pretty good compromise to get the kids what will benefit them and still have some space and not have neighbors right up my ass every time I turn around.
[0] https://www.redfin.com/MN/Minneapolis/1235-Yale-Pl-55403/uni...
[1] https://www.redfin.com/MN/Minneapolis/1920-S-1st-St-55454/un...
[2] https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/222-2nd-St...
[3] https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/100-3rd-Av...
[4] https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1420-E-Pine-St-UNIT-E310-...
Okay, so there are 10 buildings (out of several thousand) with woodworking in Minneapolis, but how many of them also support what my spouse likes to do?
This is a case where you don't want it in the building, which gets us to the "there's not enough space within a 5 minute walk for a wide range of `want to do's."
And if this was true, why would it have to be? We shouldn't lock ourselves into that kind of world. There's no reason that people shouldn't be able to have access to workspaces just because they don't want to live in unsustainable car centric areas.
I love having a car. It gives me freedom and flexibility. It enables me to do the hobbies I like. It even gives me more career options and a broader range of housing options.
You must have one of those magical cars that runs on air, never needs to be filled up, never needs to be taxed, never needs to be insured and never breaks down. Wish I could have one of those cars.
In the meantime I’ll settle for using my feet and my bike. Never needed to fill them up with fuel, pay insurance, or tax. And my feet, at least, have never broken down.
All these numbers are from 2019.
Without car we pay about 300 euros per month for all transport needs, an extra 100 euros per month are direct subsidies. I would guess we would pay at least 800 euros per month for a car, probably more.
Try $1000/mo on average:
* https://money.com/owning-new-car-cost-total-2023/
If you're making >$100K that may not sound like that much, but the average/median US salary is lower.
(That probably doesn't include externalities either: health, climate change, commute times when you do have to go into the office, etc.)
Cars can be convenient, but it'd be better if they were option for living your life rather than a necessity.
And even using the $1k/mo number, you're still paying thousands more in rent to save that.
The average monthly payment for a used car is $500/mo, and $700/mo for a new car:
* https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/auto-loans/average-...
Then add maintenance, insurance, depreciation, fuel. And that's just the stuff that shows up on a spreadsheet (of which depreciation most folks don't really think about).
Your balance sheet would factor in only your interest payments and depreciation, the principal on your loan is irrelevant there because it's being realized as equity.
The average monthly payment for a used car being $500 does not mean that somebody on a low income has to pay $500 to own a car. I'd imagine that the average price paid for a cup of coffee is around $5, but that doesn't mean that that's what coffe costs. It just means that a lot of people pay way more than neccessary for coffee. Similarly- lots of people drive cars that are bigger, faster, newer, more luxurious, and more capable then necessary.
The bare minimum cost to own a vehicle is not $500 a month by any means- my 5000 dollar car has lasted me 6 years now as an example. Even if we consider it is now worth half of it's original value, that comes in at about $70 a month in depreciation. Hardly unaffordable
Somehow poor people can afford these cars that cost way more than they make.
Average isn't a very interesting number here. I know a guy with a $15K/month car payment, I'm sure people like him push the average up.
If you're trying to save money, don't go for average. Buy a cheap used car, ideally in cash, and your operating costs will be minimal.
The sky is the limit how much you can spend on a car if you wanted to splurge(waste), but you can also a fully functional car for very cheap if you care to save money.
You can also get higher payments with money down if you have no to low credit ratings. Been there, done that. You play the game using the online calculators that dealers provide on how much your payment can change based on credit score and down payment, and the credit score will dramatically change compared to the down payment.
> it'd be better if they were option for living your life rather than a necessity
I totally agree with that. I 100% support other people having the option to own or not own a car and accept the tradeoffs that result from their choice.
If you're rich and money is no object, do what makes you happy.
But if money is tight enough that you care about cost, it is very silly to look into an expensive new car. Buy an older efficient Honda/Mazda/Toyota for less than $10K, insurance will be cheaper, operating costs very low.
[1] https://newsroom.aaa.com/2023/08/annual-new-car-ownership-co...
The average vehicle on the road is 12 years old.