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Comment by prof-dr-ir | Hacker News Reader

> currently ongoing in the UK

To be precise it is finally getting some of the attention it deserves, both from the public and from the government.

The miscarriages of justice date from 1999 until 2015, and the high court ruling (about the software being faulty) that finally stopped the flow of convictions dates from 2019, almost five years ago. Very little happened since then, and in particular no one has been held accountable.

If that delay sounds absolutely bonkers to you then yes, that is what everyone else thinks as well.

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> Very little happened since then, and in particular no one has been held accountable.

Even crazier. The Post Office just recently lowered(!) the amount of money they allocated for compensations: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67784706

They basically allocated a pot of money to pay the people they have harmed off. But these people had to actively go out and request their conviction to be overturned. Which of course many people were reluctant to do, since it means they would be upturning their life again, and going to court and finding lawyers and etc. They understandably have very little trust in the system. So Post Office just shrugged and decided they don't need to keep that much money around.

And all the while Horizon is still in use and still making money vanish - via both bugs and the £95 million paid to Fujitsu to keep it going for another two years: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67940125

> Even crazier. The Post Office just recently lowered(!) the amount of money

It's even worse: they're still fighting hard against the appeals, heaping more misery on the people trying to turn their lives around!

What exactly does ‘fighting hard’ mean? I got the impression that the judges weren’t very impressed with at least some of their appearances in court.

They're hiding/losing evidence such as emails and refusing to answer questions.

They offer token settlements, require the victim to provide lots of evidence they wouldn't have, and expect them to pay for their own lawyers to invoke legal arcana that would get them a just compensation.

https://www.taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/01/11/hss_scandal/

They hire expensive lawyers who are experts in making black look white.

I think you highlighted it right there. They’re fighting even the slam dunk appeals, which is fucking disgusting, in my opinion.

Sounds like lawyers are at the driving seat

IANAL but in my experience, the lawyers would say "doublecheck everything and if we're wrong, pay them so I don't have to spend a lot of effort litigating this". No, I would bet it's a combination of PR flacks and MBA/C-levels who would rather ruin lives than take a clear L on their record.

Effort = income, so I don't see why certain lawyers would not be willing to do the case.

Lawyers don't like losing cases.

This is the leadership instructing the lawyers to fight the case. They can stop it at any time but they choose to continue the misery of their victims instead of admitting fault.

Seems one of the former senior executives of Fujitsu now runs a gov't agency that handles contracts to digital services vendors like...Fujitsu.

Not sure how the legal authorities work in the UK but people have to be held accountable, regardless of political party. One would think the government's legal authorities have to act on behalf of the citizens not just in holding persons criminally responsible but also compensating victims.

https://democracyforsale.substack.com/p/tory-donor-fujitsu-p...

The little that happened can be summarized as: the Post Office CEO from 2015 to 2019 got a CBE when she stepped down.

For those not from the UK like myself that had to figure out what CBE is - it stands for a title called Commander of the Order of British Empire. It’s granted to honor notable service in various areas, including public works like the Post Office. This acronym is apparently common enough to people from the UK that news stories within the UK call it CBE without explaining what the acronym means, so your average UK citizen must know exactly what it means.

Most people from the USA are probably familiar with the term “knighthood” or “being knighted” from the UK which is referring to the same award process but higher ranking. The two titles above CBE apparently are what knighthood refers to, known as KBE/DBE (Knight/Dame Commander of the Order of British Empire) and GBE (Knight/Dame Grand Cross of the Order of the British Empire, the highest honor). So CBE is essentially the third highest honor that can be granted in this fashion.

Related to the story, it seems like the CEO in question was forced to give up the CBE title two days ago in relation to this scandal

There are a bunch of different orders you can get knighted in, the British Empire is just one of them, for example the fictional James Bond has a CMG, (Companion of the Most Distinguished Order of St Michael and St George), and the actor Daniel Craig who played him also has a CMG, although unlike Bond he has not turned down a KCMG (Bond turns down the knighthood because it makes you more of a public figure which is undesirable for an active secret agent whereas it's no problem for an actor).

The Order of St Michael & St George is also famous because it's how the "Yes, Minister" joke works: CMG stands for "Call Me God". And KCMG for "Kindly Call Me God" / What does GCMG stand for? / "God Calls Me God".

She was not yet "forced" to give it up, although that is likely the end result. These honours are notionally bestowed by the Monarch (so these days, Charlie) under advice, so a committee will decide that yup, Paula clearly shouldn't have this honour, take it away, and Charlie will sign the appropriate paperwork. What she's done so far is write asking that it be taken away, which is almost nothing.

Her name is Paula Vennells.

I take this opportunity to reinforce the association of her name with the scandal in future web searches.

So, Paula Vennells's Post Office scandal?

Yep, the same Paula Vennells that got a CBE in 2019 for services to the Post Office.

https://www.gov.uk/government/people/paula-vennells

Empire strikes back.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. Based on your comment I looked it up and found 6 other orders, including Order of Saint Michael and George that you mentioned. OBE is apparently not the most prestigious one, the highest and most prestigious one is apparently called The Most Noble Order of the Garter. Interesting slice of old royal UK culture.

Yes. The Garter and the Thistle (and the Order of Merit) are exclusively small and also in the personal gift of the sovereign. The Order of the British Empire is much larger and appointments are made on advice from the government.

Just to clarify, I doubt many people from the UK would know off hand what CBE stands for even though they know what a CBE is. The full name is pretty archaic in any case so it's basically just trivia at this point.

Really? I was under the impression this was common knowledge. Certainly within my family.

She said she will give it back. Which doesn't mean anything, King Charles would have to agree to it.

She didn't say she would give back the associated money she got.

She was CEO from 2012 and started at the Post Office in 2007 as group network director. She may not have started the miscarriage of justice, but she certainly doubled down on it.

She was also, until very recently, an Anglican minister.

  "Ordener hænger man paa Idioter,
  Stjærner og Baand man kun Adelen gier,
  men om de Mallinger, Suhmer og Rother,
  man ej et Ord i Aviserne ser.
  Dog, har man Hjærne,
  kan man jo gjærne
  undvære Orden og Stjærne."

(A verse from a satirical song from 1790 -- "orders are hung on idiots".)

Once that happens what is the process to overturn the old convictions?

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