As someone who was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, I can assure you capitalism, freedom and democracy came together while we had communism, lack of freedom and dictatorships.
Why is there still a need to start responses in such a cliche manner. As someone who was also born there ... who cares
> I can assure you capitalism, freedom and democracy
Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts. Capitalism seeks to maximize capital at the expense of labour time. Freedom mens nothing if you dont have the time (eaten up by labour) and capital to enjoy it. Democracy means nothing if you dont have time to be educated about policies you vote for (we have objective mass media for that). Anyway, if you want a more extreme example of freedom and democracy not equal capitalism just look at Russia and China
Most people spouting anti-capitalism rhetoric never even bothered to visit some of communism's success stories like Cuba or Venezuela, but how about living there?
> Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts.
They come together. Capitalism gives you economic power and pulls you out of abject poverty. Together with free markets this gives you freedom. First freedom is to choose where you work and thus maximise your earning potential and free time. With free time you can educate yourself more, including about democracy.
I have seen this process happening in Eastern Europe with my own eyes when switching from communism, hunger and poverty to capitalism, freedom and eventual (relative) prosperity during the 90's.
Trying to pin international relationship destabilization to capitalism while actually it is being done by russia being greedy is the real lack of education or maybe even malice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American...
So russia invaded Ukraine for resources?
> Russia is a big problem for the US because it is very resource rich
So russia needed to invade Ukraine why again? If it has all the resources.
> global warming will benefit Russia greatly.
I think this is a really simplistic and shortsighted view. The extremes will get worse and ecosystems that feed the people will collapse.
Ukrainian people had finally had enough of the russian puppet yanukovich and kicked him out.
russia then used green men and later official army to illegaly invade Ukraine.
Also the afraid of NATO story is complete bunk as Finland has now joined NATO without any objections from russia DOUBLING the russia NATO border.
russia was aggressive during czarist times, russia was aggressive during soviet times, russia is aggressive now. Trying to blame any of it to others is just dumb and evil.
On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. On 28 March 1992, after a meeting with US ambassador to Yugoslavia Warren Zimmermann in Sarajevo, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any division of Bosnia.
— Carrington–Cutileiro plan [Wikipedia]That's a well-known lie. Why do you keep repeating it?
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-775288
> Why do you keep repeating it?
I have no recollection of engaging in this topic previously, so I looked through your recent comments and see that you only engage in political threads (mainly Russia bashing), which is curious given that HN is a technical not a political forum. Are you a troll?
> When Moseichuk asked the party leader why Ukraine did not agree to the offer, the he stated that Ukraine "had no confidence" in the Russians since they were ready to promise anything for Ukraine to agree.
> "We could not sign something, step away, everyone would relax there, and then they would [invade] even more prepared – because they have, in fact, gone in unprepared for such a resistance," he said. "Therefore, we could only explore this route when there is absolute certainty that this will not happen again. There is no such certainty."
The story about Ukraine and Russia having reached a deal, only to be abandoned under Western pressure, is and remains a lie repeated by Russian propaganda machine with the goal of painting Ukrainians as warmongers while Russia keeps shooting missiles at Ukrainian cities.
Lol. You sound like a communist party slogan maker who switched flags. t00l
> with the goal of painting Ukrainians as warmongers while Russia keeps shooting missiles at Ukrainian cities.
No buddy. Read what I'm writing. It's pretty simple. The US (and UK) and Russia are warmongers. Ukrainians are victims of BOTH. They are essentially fucked because their leadership is either Russian puppets (past) or US puppets (present). As of today Ukraine probably lost over half a MILLION soldiers. Soon combined losses of all warring parties will be over a million. It is VERY sad. Fuck war and anyone who wishes it. Goodbye
Why do you keep pointing fingers at parties that have no say in ending the war? Nor starting it for the matter as well.
<(^_^)>Thank you this is gold
<3russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, why?
Also armistice negotiations in April 2022 failed because the horrific genocide, torture and rape that russians did in Bucha came to light. No US and UK involvement there at all.
As far as any agreements with russia they are obviously completely worthless as Ukrainians know very well from the Budapest memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum.
And how exactly does it do that?
Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity and thus making thugs like Putin envious and hungry for conquest? Hmm maybe you have a point.
By seeking a monopoly on resources
> Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity
TOO MUCH LOOOLHow exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources?
> TOO MUCH LOOOL
Absolutely. Eastern Europeans are now in the EU and we have freedom of movement, expression and to work anywhere we wish. During communism machine guns and barbed wire kept us locked down so we wouldn’t escape its wonders.
Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk.
It’s night and day, you can’t even imagine it unless you’ve lived it . Of course all Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) vigorously rejects any closeness to Russia and its ilk. Of course an authoritarian like Putin was furious and did the only thing he could think of: war, murder and genocide.
Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military.
Moreover, it is a generally well known economic principle that capitalism entails cyclical crisis periods for self correction. Usual way to deal with it is debt and expansion of markets. Debt levels today are unprecedented while there are no significant new markets to expand into (China and Eastern Europe including Russia are already absorbed into the market). Raw materials (including fresh water and air) are more valuable than ever.
> Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk.
Huge part of personal wealth in Eastern Europe is actually a relic of socialist times - housing. Eastern European countries have by far the highest rate of home ownership as a result of socialism. In the developed world, China is the leader of home ownership rates.
You do know that 80s were quite unpleasant everywhere? In the decades prior USSR was outperforming the US economically. Also Yugoslavia, a socialist country outside the Iron Curtain, had a better living standard than some countries in Western Europe prior to 1980s. This is actually quite an achivement given how devestated and underdeveloped the region was following WWII and no Marshal Plan to help.
Anyway, I actually live in Eastern Europe. It is a great place to live in, but it is not economically prosperous. A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list (I know many people who live 30 mins away from ski slopes but the majority can hardly afford ski passes) and live a very spartan lifestyle.
Russia also has plenty of rich people taking holidays and driving expensive cars, but a great majority of Russians certainly cannot afford those things. While we are at it, look at how many Chinese tourists there are. In most expensive Western cities (eg. Sydney) property purchases by Chinese have driven property prices up significantly.
But none of that means anything. Plenty of people from Eastern Europe still want to emigrate. Birth rates are decreasing every year because it is very hard for young families to purchase their own home (see for the situation in Poland [0]). And whats more, there are plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic for old times due to social security it provided (again see Poland [1]).
[0] https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps:...
[1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330
This has nothing to do with capitalism. Any economic system can do that. But with free markets a fair price is reached and healthy competition encouraged. Of course most governments will create monopolies instead.
> generally well known economic principle
Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here?
> housing
Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner.
> USSR was outperforming the US economically
USSR was starving. USA had to send grains to avoid starvation - Kansas became Russia's bread basket.
When the Berlin wall fell the stores in the East had empty shelves while the ones in the West presented the usual bonanza of products and options.
> A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list
Of course not everybody has everything. But the per-capita GDP is inching closer to the West while Purchasing Power will soon be at parity. Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's.
> plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic
They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited.
> Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here?
How about the GFC, which is still being felt today.
> Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner.
While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (i personally find brutalist architecture aesthetically appealing), what you say about structural quality of socialist housing is very wrong. In fact, given the prevelance of reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. For socialist construction withstanding earthquakes see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake
Anyway the point is, people in Eastern Europe can relax in ways that would make many people in the West jealous - ie they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Or worst, kiss bank managers bums to get a home loan approved. Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes.
> Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's.
The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West, until 1980s. The difference being that socialist block excelled at heavy industry and strategic development. They had major problems with light industry (hence the shortages in convenience sotres). On the other hand, economic development in Eastern Europe today is driven largely by outsourcing of labour from the West, and many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses didn't want competition. The reason why companies from the West go to Eastern Europe has alot to do with the level of education of labour force in Eastern Europe. And guess what system is responsible for said levels of education ... :)
My belief is that socialism in eastern europe sucked big time. However to ignore some of its benefits is simply stupid. If we can learn well from history we are in a better place as humans to build a better world for all humans. Otherwise we will descend into war and barbarism, where we find ourselves at the moment. The key difference between the situation preceding WWI and today is the presence of nuclear weapons. Even trench warfare has made a comeback.
> They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited.
Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week.
> Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources.
> reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings.
> they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes.
Are you out of your mind?
Have you actually lived under communism?
I grew up under soviet occupation and none of those things were even remotely true.
The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.
The quality of the concrete housing blocks is abysmal, there have been pretty bad collapses, the ventilation and insulation is nonexistent, it's a dreadful existence in them.
Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself.
Wanted a zhiguli car? Wait in line for 5 years to get a permit to buy a car, then go to get it from some ass end corner of russia. After getting home, get few friends to pretty much disassemble the car to make sure that every bolt is actually tightened so the car would not disintegrate randomly.
As for kissing bosses asses, this was there even more. Bribes to get basics.
Wanted to get sausage, stand in line for a few hours only to find out that "it's run out, wink, wink, gimme a bottle of vodka and wait behind the shop, maybe I find some".
Yes, but are you just retelling stories you overheard?
> Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself
The socialist countries were built on litteraly nothing, with a majority of population being illiterate. As developing countries they did very well. A fair comparison would actually be a country like Portugal or south Italy or even Greece. Waiting 10 years for an appartment is nothing, even by standards in the West. What is the average age of (loaned) property purchase in the West? What is the average age of loan repayment? In some advanced Western countries it is generation and a half.
> The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others.
Hahaha and what do you think you have to do today in many Eastern European countries, just to get a stable job. Hahaha
All those "apparachiks" just changed sides and do the same shit under capitalism.
In my country (EU) this sort of curruption still exists. If you actually need to be told this then I very much doubt you live in Eastern Europe, let alone somewhere not-at-all-corrupt like Ukraine
Nothing you said is true here. Not sure which EU country you might be in, maybe Hungary judging by the references to corruption.
There are generally 3 countries that have a pathological hatred of Russians - Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland.
Im from former Yugoslavia.
russia still doing that now is completely fine.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FdhsPQEX0AALM9H?format=jpg&name=...
The same thing that you are currently doing in Ukraine.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito%E2%80%93Stalin_split
If you were anti-war you'd be anti-Russia. They are the ones waging war right now. The war would end tomorrow if Putin would get out of Ukraine. Ukraine would end tomorrow if Ukrainians would stop fighting.
So far the only ones waging war are old imperialist forces falling behind the West: Russia and its ilk.
> Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources.
Planned economy never worked, everywhere it was tried. It simply led to hunger.
> reinforced concrete
Except communist workers stole the cement and replaced it with sand. The concrete cracked and water got in the non-waterproofed foundations, rusting the rebars. A disaster waiting to happen.
> Zagreb earthquake
That was a 5.5 - baby earthquake. We'll see when there is a 7+.
> many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses
They closed down because they couldn't compete on the global free markets. Mostly they made stuff "planned" for the Warsaw treaty countries. Crap, of course.
> people in Eastern Europe can relax
We still have to pay taxes and utilities. The government makes sure there is no such thing as free ride.
> Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes.
Personally I'd rather rent a nice place than own a crap-hole. I appreciate the freedom and lack of headaches when renting. For investment I prefer the stock market. Much better returns.
> The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West
Then why were the shelves empty and we starved?! The growth after WW2 came from looting nationalized private property. That lasted a few years and then they simply started fudging the numbers.
> Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week
Till the 80s the work week around here had 56 hours, not 36.
But some of them do miss being a part of nomenklatura and kissing the ring of the Russian masters, that's for sure.
Counter example: Zagreb earthquake
> That was a 5.5 - baby earthquake. We'll see when there is a 7+.
That's called moving the goal posts. All buildings built in Zagreb during the socialist period withstood the 2020 Zagreb and Petrinja earthquakes without any damage. For what it's worth my building has a rating of 9 and it is built in the 70s.
> Till the 80s the work week around here had 56 hours, not 36.
In former Yugoslavia it was 36 hours since 1970s. We also had workers self management - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_self-management
> Personally I'd rather rent a nice place than own a crap-hole. I appreciate the freedom and lack of headaches when renting. For investment I prefer the stock market. Much better returns.
Be that as it may, these "crap holes" are a definite source of financial stability for a huge majority of people in Eastern Europe. Moreover, they are often refurbished into nice apartments, and sometimes even by Western foreigners. Where I live roh bau prices for these apartments begin at 3,000 eur per sqm.