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In the first version there's only two actors in the world, who can make decisions: Russia and NATO (or rather USA, for they argue NATO is basically the USA with another name). In the second version countries are free to decide who they associate with. There wasn't some empty space that NATO moved into. The countries who were there said "hey, NATO. Russia has been attacking and oppressing us for a long time and we fear they will do it again. We'd like to join."
To answer your second question: Exactly what Russias neighbors feared is the reason. Russia is unhappy they couldn't oppress their neighbors anymore since 1990 and they want to do it again. They cannot really do it to the countries that already joined NATO, so they did it to the country that was late to the party.
That is sort of a weird argument. Do you believe that is the case for the US as well? The US did not expand into Indian areas those areas just decided to join the US..
russia attacked Ukraine.
Ukrainians had enough of kremlin puppets.
I asked about a hypothetical scenario: would the USA violently suppress a Pro-Russia Party of Finland. That seems to have caused a crash and you fell back to your default rhetoric.
> Just to clarify: the "we" who would like to join is a government that was installed by the USA in a coup. What kind of "attacking and oppressing" happened before the coup?
Putin is unfortunately right, you understand only one kind of argument.
No one needs to tell me russians are evil. It’s just something you pick up living next to russia.
Also your threat “putin was right” proves that you are, in fact, evil.
I don't want MY HOME to be occupied by anyone. In the last 100 years the only ones were nazis and russians. russians are doing the same again in Ukraine and are threatening to do it again in my home.
There is nothing hypocritical about not wanting my family being killed or raped by russians or anyone.
You say "your friends kill in Gaza"? Who would those be? I have said nothing about who my friends are. I said NATO and EU are protecting my home from russians. As for Gaza, Israel is not in NATO, also not in the EU.
That is all there is to it.
Right now the west can send as much weapons as it wants to Ukraine to be used against Russia with impunity. If Ukraine was a member of NATO Russia would be completely safe.
But the US cant even be bothered to send an insignificant amount of aid to Ukraine, never mind an actual attack. Russia knew this very well and much of its strategy is based on this decreasing interest and support.
"Russians" who have an awareness of history (who are all the Russians I know personally) understand, implicitly, that these countries did not join NATO out of hostile intent - but from the need for some level of security to protect against a neighboring country which has done, as I'm sure you must know, some pretty awful things to them in the not so distant past.
They don't love NATO by any means. But they fully get why these countries sought membership. And don't for a minute believe the hogwash put out by the current Tsar, that it was somehow "necessary" to start bombing an shooting everywhere with oblivion, and letting the bodies pile up with such an awful stink -- just to make a "point".
(I put "Russians" in quotes because only about 70 percent of the country is what one would call ethnically Russian).
We would do the exact same thing.
You're right - "we" (by which you mean the US) did in fact do a basically very similar thing, in regard to numerous countries in Latin America from about 1961-1985. To the point of establishing or supporting dictatorships that killed and tortured probably upwards of 200,000 people, on top of putting multiple generations of social development in these countries effectively on hold.
And for which we have been rightly and thoroughly condemned, by folks with a good conscience, and an awareness of basic history everywhere.
I am from eastern Europe, we do not want to sacrifice our lives to invade Russia and loot their shit, we begged to enter in NATO to ensure our survival from Russia, from our history and large number of Russian invasion we understand better why we wanted it then some Westerners. Again we have no fucking intention to still Russian land or their toilets.
>What, in your opinion, is the reason?
I thin it is easy to understand, Putin grabbed Crimea in a genius move, the Western Europe were surprised and too dependent on Russia to do anything about it, the retards shoot down an airplane with civilians and EU did nothing.
And here all it starts, Putin got his ass kissed so hard by his minions that now he thought he can do again a genius blitz attack in Ukraine, Zelensky will run, the old people will pull out the communist flags and portraits of Putin and all will be glorious. Basically Putin was misinformed and stupid enough to think he can win in 3 days or 2 weeks whatever makes Rusky feel better.
And why would Putin want to grab land, steal crap? It is a Russian thing, they like to control, steal, invade etc. They always cry that they lost their sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and they accuse us Eastern Europeans of beeing Rusofobs and brainwashed by CIA.
The final plan was probably to grab as many territories as possible before this countries enter EU and NATO, this is why Ruzzia is supporting anti-EU groups in their neighbors to delay things so his army can invade.
When some Rusky or tanky will tell you that Ruzzia is just afraid of beeing invaded, use your brain and remember that Ruzzia has nuclear weapons so nobody will invade them, the danger for them is the diea that ex-USSR cuntries are prospering in EU and NATO, this idea makes itharder to keep the new generation under contrl so extreme measures were taken to brainwsh them.