Comment by goethes_kind | Hacker News Reader

Comment by goethes_kind | Hacker News Reader

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Both sides have extremists who resort to terrorism, but ultimately, the Palestinians are still the victims, and the Israelis do hold the power and therefore the responsibility to put an end to the conflict.

There is sort of this weird cognitive dissonance that happens in the brains of first worlders. When they see a rich developed country oppressing a poorer powerless people. They recognize the wrong, but they sort of accept it as some sort of inevitability. When the poorer people then dare resort to violence, the first worlders are then suddenly aghast with horror.

How much do you protest the settlements in the West Bank? How much did you protest the inhuman statelessness of the Palestinians? How much do you protest when every couple of days Palestinians are murdered with impunity by Israeli settlers? How much do you protest when the IDF decides to intern without any legal recourse anyone of Palestinian descent? How much do you protest when the Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons are tortured and raped, and even beaten to death? How much do you protest when the IDF targets Palestinian journalists in Gaza on purpose to hide their war crimes? They also bomb their families too. How much do you protest when the IDF targets medical infrastructure in Gaza? How much do you protest when Israeli IDF snipers murder civilians at random for sport, including journalists, (foreign) peace activists, Christians, medical personnel and children?

The Israeli come from a long history of millennia of persecution for their faith.

That past violence and the fact that they are excellent storytellers and record keeper of thir faith makes this situation special

Israelis might hold the power now but as far as Arabs vs. Jews is concerned the Jews suffered a whole lot more (or at least they have been able to convey their suffering and make people empathize a whole lot more)

Crafting the story as "Arabs v. Jews" or "Muslims v. Jews" is a propaganda narrative. It's Palestinians vs far-right Israelis. There are people of all faiths and ethnicities on both sides.

What the Arabs (not the Palestinians) did wrong, which hurt the Palestinian cause immensely was to expel the Mizrahim after the Nakba. Might have felt like pay back at the time, but it cemented the current geopolitical situation.

But in any case the way forward is deradicalize both peoples and guarantee protections for both.

Even the super civil and Western like UAE only normalized relationships with Israel after the Trump administration made it a priority

Not every Arab in the region is going to grab an AK and march on Tel Aviv but if your message implies that the 500M strong Arab population in the region have come to like or even hold a neutral stance as it relates to Israel that's wrong. Very wrong.

Think about how Russia is perceived in Europe now, except constantly for 50+ years, during skermishes and wars they are perceived the way Ukranians percieve Russians now.

When there is background hatred noise it's only a matter of time until it explodes

What sounds sensible to me is for Israel to somehow incorporate the Palestinians in a way that Israelis can still feel secure and trust their own government, but without the need to keep a boot pressing on the neck of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people should be afforded the same judicial and military protection that Israelis currently enjoy.

What the wider region thinks of Israel is something else entirely. I most definitely do not condone any kind of ethnic-based violence. Israel should still continue to serve as a safe haven for Jews worldwide.

The only thing muslims hold against Jews is that they succesfully defend themselves. Kurds are being massacred, no one cares, least of all muslims. Armenians were being subjected to an Azerbeijani genocide, a month before this conflict started. No muslim cares. In Yemen, Sunni and Shi'a are committing genocide on eachother ... for decades now. Aside from an obvious disastrous failure by Saudi Arabia, no-one is doing anything. In Sudan, somewhat black muslims are killing somewhat more black muslims, because of skin color. No one cares.

EACH of the named conflicts has at minimum double the number of victims of the Gaza conflict. Sudan at least 10x more. Yemen, as well, is far worse than the Gaza conflict.

The problem in the middle east ... is not hatred against Jews. Sorry. It isn't.

Given what muslims in the middle east call peace, then I'm sorry to say but peace is worse than war. Much, much worse.

It's wrong to say that no one cares. Many, many Muslims have spoken out, and there are many humanitarian efforts being run.

The fact of the matter is that the middle east is still in the shadow of colonialism post WWI. Every time there is an effort to unite, there is immediate intervention by the west, in order to preserve their interests. We saw what happened in Egypt for example when Mursi was elected. It is in the vested interest of the west for conflict to continue in the ME. joe biden is on record for saying that if there was no israel, they would have to create one.

> It's wrong to say that no one cares.

OK, lets say people care way less. like 99.5% less if we count demonstrations and social media outrage.

From observations and interactions, it's actually over 90% who care.

The "attempts to unify"? You mean Daesh/ISIS? There has been no other attempt to unify so you must mean that. The muslim brotherhood, Morsi, is Hamas/PIJ.

This is what is so depressing about some muslims. Let's face facts here: you see massacres and destruction as a positive, not a negative, as long as they "serve islam", and want to turn the middle east back into the hellhole it was before oil.

And "serve islam", only in a superficial way ... it should be said that of course this sort of attitude is giving EVERY world power reason AND excuse to destroy islam. Russia is trying to destroy islam, in Chechnya and the Caucasus. India is now trying to destroy islam, in Kashmir (and everywhere else they can). China is trying to destroy islam, in Xinjang, and even in parts of Pakistan. Iran is trying to destroy Islam (yes, really, they will massacre entire countries before they allow a caliph). Australia ... Half of Europe now has governments trying to destroy islam, and if Trump gets elected, out of 6 inhabited continents on earth ONLY ONE will not have government policies targeting islam ... well done, fuck man, well done. Obviously, the next decades are going to be VERY painful for the middle east, islam, and even muslims in the west. VERY painful. Surely that can't be hard to see? And all you see is more opportunity for destruction. Fuck man.

I don't understand people like you, I mean, you must realize that even the internet as a whole, never mind a forum like this, is ENTIRELY and heavily against islam, for 100 different reasons. So why are you here if you have even the smallest amount of faith in what you say? You want to live in a supposedly religious hellhole? Go and do that. Plenty of choices available. STOP trying to conquer places.

Your post comes across as extremely condescending and even racist. Your parent does not deserve this.

I don't get it. He makes a slightly obscured reference and you don't get to call him out on wanting to convert a country into an islamist/terrorist state? Just because the GP doesn't name it directly?

I would call out a Frenchman singing the praises of Le Pen as well. I bet people would ALSO say Le Pen is trying to "unify France". She is, kind of. Genetically, so to speak. She's a monster. Not on equal footing with Trump, she is far worse. This is serious. Likewise, Egypt has their fascists, the "muslim brotherhood", and Morsi was at one point their champion.

If he didn't get deposed, we might be fighting WW3 now. Really.

Your parent (who never indicated their preferred 3rd person pronouns btw.) never mentioned ISIS, that was you. They mentioned efforts to unite, and you took the leap of logic and stated they must mean ISIS. This is extremely condescending.

I say this is a leap of logic, because your narrative is ahistorical. There have been plenty of groups that sought to unify the Muslim world, not necessarily under a single state, and the Muslim Brotherhood is one of those groups. ISIS is not one of these groups however as they sought to rule the Muslim word, not unify. It is the same as saying that Nazi Germany was trying to unify Europe.

Your post also came across as racist, although I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way. The reason is you use very loaded and unfair words to describe the Muslim world (such as “hellhole”) and you speak of Muslim affairs as their self created doom, as if they don’t interact with with wider world, only simple action and reaction. They did this, we do that, etc, so really it is them doing it to them selves. I’m not saying you said that, but it sure sounds like you were going that route.

He mentioned Morsi, and how unfair it is that he was not given control of Egypt. Morsi is muslim brotherhood, and parts of that organisation is Hamas/PIJ/IJ, which is referred to as "Daesh" in Europe/France, there is no real difference between these organisations. Most definitely, Daesh wanted to "unify the muslim world". And sorry but these are obviously religious organisations.

They're also worse than Nazis. If these people come to power, war WILL start. And absolutely guaranteed: it won't stop at Israel. It will be WW3. There will soon be no other choice left for anyone.

So I disagree strongly: how can I get you to understand that this is comparable to complaining how unfair it is that Hitler wasn't given full control of Germany after the election result of July 1932?

The link between ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood is an entirely made up conspiracy theory. This is from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood#Outside_the...

> A Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) intelligence report from January 2017 warned that designation of the Brotherhood as a terrorist organization "may fuel extremism" and harm relations with U.S. allies. The report noted that the Brotherhood had "rejected violence as a matter of official policy and opposed al-Qa'ida and ISIS" and that while "a minority of MB [Muslim Brotherhood] members have engaged in violence, most often in response to harsh regime repression, perceived foreign occupation, or civil conflicts", designation of the organization as a terrorist group would prompt concern from U.S. allies in the Middle East "that such a step could destabilize their internal politics, feed extremist narratives, and anger Muslims worldwide."

The Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected during the very brief time Egypt was a democracy. It is in fact the only democratically elected government Egypt has seen. You may say that the Nazis were also democratically elected, however the Muslim Brotherhood didn’t turn Egypt into a fascist dictatorship, that was al-Sisi, al-Sisi overthrew a democratically elected government in a violent coup, which involved a few massacres, including the Rabaa massacre which killed over a thousand people. If you are concerned about Egyptian terrorist groups, you can’t look past the al-Sisi government’s reign of terror.

ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood (and by extension Hamas) have a widely different ideology. The only thing that link them is that they are both Muslim organization and that Hamas (but not the Muslim Brotherhood) sometimes uses terrorism (but for very different reasons than ISIS). If not for the race factor, you could claim that Sinn Féin are also like ISIS and worse then the Nazis, and that a free Ireland would start WW3. This is—off course—ridiculous.

Your claim is at best very confused and ahistorical, and at worst it comes across as racist (in the “all Muslims are terrorists”-lite sense).

Look, the muslim brotherhood was implicated (yes "unproven") in both the Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan massacres in France. Given that, say whatever you want. If this organisation is wiped off the face of the earth tomorrow, VERY few people, and I'm really hoping that includes 99% French muslims, will shed any tears.

Like I said, conspiracy theories. Saïd Kouachi and Chérif Kouachi claimed them selves to be members of al-Qaeda. The Muslim Brotherhood are no friends of al-Qaeda.

The only actual link (other then all Muslims are terrorists) I can find between al-Qaeda and the Muslim brotherhood is that some former members of the Muslim Brotherhood left and joined al-Qaeda or ISIS. This is not a smoking gun, as quite a few members of many political organization across the world (including European organization) left and joined ISIS.

Daesh (ISIS) is not Hamas or PIJ. I mentioned nothing of them, you're putting words in my mouth. They could not be further from each other, and it is incorrect to equate them.

Comparing Morsi to Hitler? No comment there.

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