Hard disagree. Not saying for a fact that I personally would have the balls to defacto give up my high paying job over it, but I won't pretend that that isn't a pathetic point of view when it is a genocide in progress that is being fought over here. At least have the wherewithal to recognize their courage and value as human beings when remarking over it pseudoanonymously on the internet, no?
We have a pretty clear definition under international law what constitutes a genocide. It has nothing to do with numbers or proportion but rather intent and conduct, for example the Bosnian genocide was ruled as such because of the killing of 8372 victims, while the Cambodian genocide failed to meet the criteria despite 2-3 million dead.
Many international organizations and governments—including the world highest court—has stated that it is plausible that Israel is committing a genocide.
This is not an emotional argument, but rather a legal argument made at the highest court as well as by experts in the field. If we want to be accurate with our words, we should indeed use the word genocide in this context.
If we want to be accurate with our words, let’s not use claims that haven’t been proven outside of TikTok.
The Cambodian genocide was never proven to be a genocide under international law. It was proven under a special national tribunal in Cambodia to be one. But it failed to meet the strict criteria under international law. We still call it a genocide, and we should do so. The crimes of the Khmer Rouge were that of genocide and should be described as such. The same goes for the crimes of Israel.
Israel being accused of genocide is similarly a political ploy by those who hate Jews and the ruling of genocide is a foregone conclusion because it serves those who hate Jews (aka most of Europe, the ME, and Africa). You wishing for genocide doesn't make it so, instead of making baseless hate filled claims why not back them up with actual facts? Where's the intent? Where's the conduct? Promising to kill all of Hamas isn't genocide just like promising to kill all of the nazis wasn't genocide, just like promising to kill all of ISIS isn't genocide. If you take all the actual actions that Israel has taken as well as all the words spoken by the people actually in power, you don't have genocide, instead you have a war started by a genocidal death cult, and peace-loving people attempting to defend themselves while preserving as much life as possible, even as those very people make every attempt to kill more Jews.
You claim this isn’t backed by facts. But you are wrong. There has been a case filed at the world court with 85 pages of evidence. The world court has ruled this evidence as relevant and incriminating. Since the case was filed more evidence has been piling up, which we can see in various media outlets, so much so that the world court issued an addendum to their ruling when it became apparent that Israel was using starvation of the Palestinian people as a weapon of war, and plausibly as a means towards genocide.
Your claim that this is a political ploy be people who hate Jews is baseless and without merit. This is a desperate attempt of people actively trying prevent Palestinian people from being victims of genocide.
Calling something genocide doesn't make it so. Calling Hamas collateral damage is further proof of your totally warped world view.
However I’d like to clarify one thing. The World Court is used interchangeably with the International Court of Justice (ICJ). Googling “World Court” yields ICJ as the first result. Typing “World Court” into Wikipedia gives you the page for ICJ. In many languages (including my native tongue) this court is called the World Court.
I beg you to please show some curiosity, if you encounter a term you don’t know, it is easier to search the term (or ask) rather then to accuse the poster of idiocy.
Regardless of their name, they hold no authority and are an entirely political organization as I've said in other comments.
I'm not sure what I need to show curiosity about, I've been very open to any discussion here, but if all you continue to bring are baseless accusations of hate, without adding anything there isn't really any more curiosity to be had.
When you say stuff like: “You have no idea what genocide means” you accuse me of ignorance, despite the fact that earlier I made it clear what I meant by it, and even cited the genocide convention. The only way I can take this is that you believe me to be dumb (which may be true TBH).
You didn’t attack my arguments, rather you assumed my worldview to be delusional or ignorant and ordered me to stop doing that.
You also accused me of anti-semitism elsewhere, but I choice not to engage with that.
From the continued insistence on a false accusation of genocide against all Jews to the willful ignorance about the history of Israel. I guess I should have expected no less from someone with pronouns on their profile.
> You continue to appeal to authority as if that proves everything. Nothing you've said in this entire discussion is based in reality.
> anything can be true… doesn’t mean it actually is tho, it could be true we’re living on the sun… especially if we totally redefine the meaning of “living”, “true”, and “sun”.
> Calling AJ or WP established news organizations is like calling water dry. They're both propaganda arms of the same type of people
> These are people incapable of understanding the actual facts on the ground either because they've been totally brainwashed or like in your case, their jobs prevent them from accepting rational arguments.
I honestly don’t know what you want me to do. If I make a claim which is widely believed, recited by international organizations as well as governments and media outlets. If I cite a news source, then you simply claim their claim is not base in reality either and/or they are just propaganda.
A pedantic side note (to bring some curiosity back into this discussion): Water can indeed be dry. When water is frozen it is indeed dry, when you touch it, it melts the surface and it is the melted liquid water you touch which is wet.
A second pedantic side note: AJ and WP (and every other media outlet) is off course propaganda. I never pretend otherwise. However they usually propagandize with editorializing, while still reporting truthfully, these are all true statements:
“34 000 have been murdered by the Israeli military in an ongoing genocide in Gaza”
“Israeli assaults have now killed at least 34 000 in Gaza”
“Hamas controlled Gaza health ministry has now confirmed 34 000 lost their lives in Gaza”
Even though they are propaganda, there is still a widely excepted true statement in there that we can use as source. If you want to dispute that, then you are going to have to provide some evidence, and honestly this is such a widely believed number I will probably not believe the evidence you would give against it.
all three quotes are false and do not reflect reality. A true statement would be:
"Hamas, a genocidal organization that has often been found to make inaccurate or totally false statements is claiming without sufficient evidence or proof that 34,000 people have been killed in the ongoing war they started; the IDF confirms it has killed at least 15,000 Hamas or PIJ operatives".
If you'd like a succinct headline that includes some information:
"Hamas unverifiably claims more dead today, of ongoing war they initiated"
"Over 16,000 civilians killed in Hamas-started war" (group those killed by Hamas, and those killed by IDF, only using data that has been independently verified, even Hamas only claims it can actually verify ~15k of the deaths[1])
You are of course guilty of innumerable logical fallacies throughout our discussion, your favorite is of course an appeal to authority, but here you attempt the bandwagon fallacy. Just because a bunch of people have been duped into believing something to be true, that doesn't make it so. You cannot wish truth into existence.
To use that number at all without any context around the fact that it has been soundly debunked by multiple organizations who examined the claims [0] is irresponsible or more likely dishonestly malicious.
Again the only conclusion I can come to is that you are intentionally trolling.
[0]https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-he...
[1]https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/7168?disposition=i...
There are definetely war crimes - you cannot avoid it, especially when both sides are mortal enemies for generations and palestines tactics dont shy away from using civilians, fighting in civilian clothes etc.
Its a perfect environment for hate crimes.
That said, a “perfect environment for hate crimes” does not excuse a genocide, nor other crimes for that matter. If it did we could excuse Hamas’ conduct on Oct 7 as well. Hate crimes ought to be prevented or prosecuted regardless of the environment they were committed in. This is why it is important to call Israel’s crimes what they are, a genocide.
You've been bleating about a genocide for 75 years and yet over those 75 the population you claim is being destroy has had absolutely explosive growth. You have no idea what genocide means, and continuing to claim that is slanderous and disrespectful!
Also to clarify, I was stating that the Nazis didn’t start their genocide by killing every Jewish person on sight, the atrocities gradually got worse over time. By the time of the 1936 Berlin Olympics the atrocities were well known and it was known what the Nazis wanted to do with Jewish people. Even still the international community failed to boycott the Olympics giving the Nazis reassurance that they could get away with the atrocities up until then, an possibly more.
So far the genocide in Gaza has the potential to be worse, and the international community consistently fails to stop it. Presumably, this is the goal of the Zionist government in Israel.
All the Jew hating European judges in the world doesn’t change that.
Pretending the UN is some higher unbiased authority is intensely naive. The UN has shown time and again that it holds Jews and Israel to an impossible standard and the many nations that make up the UN show little regard for fairness or justice, instead they are most focused on being able to commit as many atrocities at home while pointing the fingers at those dirty Jews. In fact this ridiculous case was only brought by the SA government as a cynical ploy to redirect attention from their own failing economy and dire political outlook. As with all things involving Jews the conspiracy is always on the other side.
Additionally, the UN gets many things totally wrong for many political reasons, e.g. it’s been totally toothless wrt the Russian/Ukraine war, it’s failed to even acknowledge china’s many well documented atrocities, so appealing to its authority as “the highest court in the world” makes it clear you’re either entirely ignorant or intentionally malicious.
Israel targets and kills a lot of people, and so far it has failed to demonstrate how the majority of them pose a threat. A good example is when al-Jazeera journalist Hamza al-Dahdouh was targeted and killed by an Israeli missile. Israel said he and his coworker were terrorists posing a direct threat to nearby soldiers. Evidence however showed that they had been covering a news story nearby and were on their way back, completely contradicting Israel’s claim. In light of the overwhelming evidence against Israel’s initial claim they simply backtracked and said it was an accident. However evidence shows that their car was indeed targeted[1]. Hamza al-Dahdouh is only one of thousands of such cases. The only reasonable explanation is that Israel targets and kills non-combatants on mass scale in an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza.
1: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/10/israeli-army-appear...
We have records of their work, and their plan the day they were targeted, we have their employers corroborating that plan, we have visual evidence of their locations and witnesses of what they were doing that day. The evidence they were journalists doing journalism is overwhelming, to a point where Israel doesn’t even deny it anymore.
Your post is slanderous and disrespectful.
Additionally, every single time so far that Israel was accused of killing a journalist its later come out the "journalist" was working with Hamas, Obviously the Hamas propaganda mouthpiece (AJ) isn't gonna publicize that when they have people like you who will happily swallow every single falsehood they peddle. Please consider getting your facts from this reality and not the false one you invent in your imagination, barring that simply sit down and stop spreading more hate.
Where is that work? Where did you read that? I haven’t seen it. I gave you a link to a story by an established media organization which outlines the story includes quotes from interviews, answers to questions, quotes other media organizations (including the NBC). Other media outlets seem to agree with al-Jazeera here. Here is a link from Washington post on the same story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/19/gaza-journal...
Could you extend me the courtesy and provide me with the source of where you got the information that Hamza Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya were spying on the IDF? I don’t even know where to begin looking for where you could read that. The IDF doesn’t even claim they were, instead stating they were shot by mistake (which is it self a questionable claim).
AJ in particular is literally owned by the very people harboring and funding Hamas. while WP is owned by and run by the same people who chant "from the river..." and talk about the Nakba and the innocent palestinians without any irony. These are people incapable of understanding the actual facts on the ground either because they've been totally brainwashed or like in your case, their jobs prevent them from accepting rational arguments.
This was the number of victims to date.
The BBC is just like Al Jazeera. A biased media outlet owned and funded by a partial state, which runs an independent news program. Qatar and, by extension, Al Jazeera is partial towards the Palestinian cause while the UK and, by extension, the BBC are partial towards Israel. Here are two articles by the news outlet partial towards Israel which dispute your disputing of the casualty numbers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68387864
Of course this was never engaging with my claims, rather it was finding a single claim (no matter how irrelevant) which you could dispute, win an argument over, and claim victory on the whole debate. If you wanted to engage with my true claims, you would provide me with a source on where you read that Hamza al-Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya were Hamas “spotters” spying on IDF encampment in the area. You would tell me which definition of Genocide you are using and explain how Israel’s conduct doesn’t fall under it. You would dispute the 85 page document filed by South Africa claiming genocide, not by ad-hominem stating that South Africa is an evil country, nor by claiming me citing it is an appeal to authority, but by reading the content, providing counter points and counter evidence of the report.
Consider that maybe such people don't have any idea what they're talking about and are simply totally wrong. Consider that you wanting the Jews to be doing something evil so you can be justified in your hatred doesn't mean the Jews are doing anything wrong, it just means that you have hatred in your heart. Is it possible?
You keep asking me to be curious, why don't you try being curious about why you, after only ever consuming content that paints Jews in the worst possible light, might not be capable of giving them the benefit of the doubt? Why it might be literally impossible for you to view any topic about Jews through a fair lens?
The state of Israel is committing genocide, and “The Jews” have absolutely nothing to with the state of Israel. Which ethnicity the leaders of the state of Israel has, has nothing to with the rest of the people who share that ethnicity. To be absolutely clear: The Jews have done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, I don’t want the Jews to do anything, except continue to exist and share their amazing culture with the rest of the world.
Now, with that out of the way. Genocide is clearly defined by the UN. It is a pretty universal and undisputed definition. Most nation (152 to be exact; see list[1]) have signed and put into law this same definition, including both Israel (in 1950) and Palestine (in 2014). This includes nations in both hemispheres, on all 6 habitable continents, of all major religion, indigenous nations, former colonies, current colonizers, countries with minority representation, majority minority nations, homogeneous nations etc. Even countries that have in the past been perpetrators and victims of genocide have signed on this definition of Genocide.
I’m not making any claims here which isn’t pretty much universally accepted. And according to this definition—which is universally accepted—it has been ruled by many experts and a legal authority on the matter, that it is plausible that Israel (not the Jews) are committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza as a group.
You see, I also want Palestinians in Gaza to continue to exist and share their amazing culture with the rest of the world. And as of now it is plausible that the state of Israel is working to deny them this existence, by committing a genocide against them. For that I do indeed hate the state of Israel, just as I hate Nazis trying to deny Jewish people the right to exist. In fact my heart is full of hatred towards the ideology of Zionism. But at the same time my heart is full of love towards Jewish people.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Genocid...
As usual, you've gone overboard in spreading lies and misinformation. Not once have I ever moved the goal posts, you're the one who keeps introducing more lies and then backtracking or ignoring me every time I call you out.
Please just be honest and admit: you hate jews... it's ok you're in good company. But pretending to be concerned about a people who have no regard for their own life is so sad and pointless.
All of these can be true while at the same time the Israeli system of governance can be deemed akin to a genocide.
Your comment didn’t add anything at all. I pointed out, the people making these claims have a bunch of ulterior motives that are totally at odds with them coming to a honest conclusion and you agreed and then baselessly made another claim that genocide could be happening without any further evidence.
Of course I’m complicit in a genocide.