Comment by its_so_on | Hacker News Reader

Comment by its_so_on | Hacker News Reader

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Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here.

I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with. Nothing else comes close.

That said.

"Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals"

I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what 'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half of the first sentence of the linked article

"The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals

WOW

for architecture,

WOW

design, development, and maintenance

WOW

...of the primary web site.

Oh.

I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move.

I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals would benefit everyone.

The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a thought.

A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get started with.

I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies) is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails).

I think you underestimate the usefulness of a hosted environment. I need a really good reason to set up a full stack myself and incur the maintenance problems of system upgrades and hardening an entire OS.

That said, you are right that there are plenty of hosting providers with ruby/python available in some capacity.

In the comment that you're replying to, my exact words were "are there really that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like? (from django to rails)". After I said that loads of people are happy with Wordpress, and other similar services, including with plugins, and just use that instead of php and html.

So, whereas previously (in the 90s) you would have a big jump from HTML only with maybe PHP or you jump up to paying for a server every month and having to lock it down and administer it yourself, now, the former category has access to loads more 'hosted' service possibilities so that what you can do with "wordpress only" has substantially increased; meanwhile, the latter category has come down substantially, due to instances on the cloud being so much cheaper and the amount of uptake making it much more worth it for a company to put out a standardized image with a few frameworks, etc.

So my point was twofold. Firstly, the old 'hosted content' users have access (and use) substantially fuller services, and the old 'full stack' users AND some of the old 'php is all I can use' users now have EASY access to a full instance or whatever framework you want.

Between the two, I think your comment doesn't have much currency.

THe best way for people to contribute to Python the language is to take a look at the devguide http://docs.python.org/devguide/ and if they're new, join the core mentorship list: http://pythonmentors.com/

I'm saying that you need to broaden your input so that the people who would look at the devguide aren't the only people you're hearing from. Python can approach a local maximum that way, but the things that would make it truly awesome and attractive to web developers would be too out of the box for someone to think of like that. I'm saying, ask everyone, the whole community.

This is why we had a Web Dev summit at PyCon US 2012: https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/WebDevSummit/ - to discuss what we can do as a language and community to make it more "attractive" and ease the on-ramp for the web community as a whole.

So, other efforts are under way for this, and orthogonal to the current RFP

I agree with you on the orthogonality, and wish you luck in getting a very wide base of feedback.

I think Python could be the best language for the web and for any programming anywhere: in the future, if it lives up to its potential, there will be a time when no one should even consider learning anything else as a first or only language. But, for a web developer, I don't think that time is now.

I hope you take fundamental redesigns very seriously moving forward. Good luck.

IMO periodic website redesign and cleanup is a good idea as it does make it easier for users to find information and gives a comforting feeling of a professional look to new users.

"that lives on the web"

What does that even mean?

This is a good question. I don't know what the answer is, but there's a good chance http response objects aren't it.

Protip - complaining about your karma just makes people want to downvote you even more.

Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. [1]

1. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

duly noted, and I've edited and removed where I still could. Thanks.

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