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> And as energy cost fluctuates, so do habits

You're advocating for reverting back to pre electrified times, this stuff is straight from the 19th century. Using energy is good, it is progress.

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Not at all.

I'm saying that people adapt very quickly when costs are involved.

I'm not saying we sit in the dark at night. I'm saying that we time-shift some energy consumption because some of the day energy is free, and some of the day we pay for it.

The pool pump runs during the day. As does the hot water cylinder. The electrical cost for these us now zero (on most days.) Our night-time electricity usage has gone down because it's more expensive.

When energy costs the same all 24 hours then it's not something I take into consideration. When it's different habits change. I don't use less energy, if anything I use more. But I factor time-of-day into -when- I use it.

Not everything can be shifted. Our peak usage is still in the morning and evening. But scheduled things have moved from night to day.

I can run 10 old 100 watt light bulbs for an hour for 14 cents. Or 100 led light bulbs. I can run my hot tub full blast for an hour for $1.40. A head of lettuce is $4. A bag of coffee is $18. Five chicken breast is $20. A tank of gas for my wife’s car is $80, and for mine is over $200.

The cost of electricity for the loads I can control, such as those other heating or cooling living space, would have to 10x for it to be worth worrying about the cost, which would mean a $1400/MWH. The ceiling on the wholesale market price in ontario, last time I checked, was $2000/MWH.

I can see the price of electricity rising quite a bit across the board, but I don’t think people are going to inconvenience themselves at all to respond to it.

> I can see the price of electricity rising quite a bit across the board, but I don’t think people are going to inconvenience themselves at all to respond to it.

People already do that, and have done so for decades. Many places have different electricity costs for defined peak and off-peak times, and many people absolutely do move their heavy electricity uses outside the peak times when they can.

Naturally ymmv depending on your energy costs. And indeed other costs. ($4 for a lettuce sounds high, we pay pennies for that here.) It'll also vary depending on your overall income.

I would gracefully suggest that your life-style might not necessarily reflect the life style of the general public?

I think my grocery prices are in line with everyone else in British Columbia

it sounds like british columbia grocery prices are insane. are those us dollars? five chicken breasts here is about $3000, which is about 2½ us dollars

Those are CAD

aha, thanks. xe tells me those are 27% smaller than us dollars, so those prices are respectively 1 dollar, 3 dollars, 13 dollars, 15 dollars, 58 dollars, and 150 dollars, speaking in us dollars

or, using today's mid-market rates from https://preciodolarblue.com.ar/, $1300, $3800, $17000, $19000, $75000, and $190000. $19000 is sure a lot more than i'd pay for five chicken breasts

as a clarification from further down the thread, since you said those are canadian dollars, those prices are respectively 1 dollar, 3 dollars, 13 dollars, 15 dollars, 58 dollars, and 150 dollars, speaking in us dollars

me, i pay $3000 for five chicken breasts, which is about 2.3 us dollars

I think that's an incredibly uncharitable interpretation of what GP said.

We already change our behavior around electricity costs and demand: for example, a couple years ago PG&E (California) forced everyone to switch to a time-of-use rate plan where electricity costs go up quite a bit between 4pm and 9pm. You better believe I avoid doing things like laundry or running the dishwasher then, and opt to run them earlier in the day or later at night.

If I had solar (without battery storage), I'd absolutely be running my heavier electric load when the sun's out instead of at night when I have to pay for power. Sure, the ideal would be everything is similarly cheap no matter what time of day, and maybe we'll get there in 75 years or so, but until then, I'm fine continuing to do some time-of-use optimization here and there.

keep in mind though that pg&e is kind of a pathological case

That may be true for the US, but lots of the world has variable energy pricing already.

not because of pricing variability, but because pg&e prices are just unbelievably high. would you believe 39¢ per kilowatt hour?

i agree that using less energy would be bad; we sure as hell aren't going to achieve atmospheric carbon capture that way, much less terraforming mars. but i think using less energy is not what's being advocated; rather, presuming that consumption patterns will remain unchanged in the face of a new incentive structure will result in an unrealistically pessimistic assessment of the required battery storage. having energy that's literally free during the day is likely to result in using more energy, not less

commercial building hvac systems have been responding to these incentives for decades: freeze water with chillers at night when electricity was cheap (or free, or actually negative cost), then circulate coolant through the ice during the day to get cold coolant to cool air through heat exchangers and thus air-condition your office. you could imagine freezers and refrigerators that worked the same way, storing energy when the sun is up to keep your food cold when the sun goes down

the popular evacuated-tube solar hot-water heater of course only heats the water during the day, storing the hot water for nighttime in an insulated tank, usually supplemented with an electric heating element for the rare occasion that the stored heat is insufficient. and there are already places where electric hot-water heaters respond to commands to preheat water at off-peak hours. these so-called 'sensible heat storage' devices are much bulkier and leakier than the phase-change type from the previous paragraph, but they can be very simple indeed

going beyond phase-change energy storage, tces energy storage uses phenomena like the enthalpy of hydration of the muriate of lime. this provides thermal energy storage that's another order of magnitude more compact; it can be used for heat and dehumidification as well as cooling, and some storage media such as lye can even get hot enough to be used for cooking

this stuff is straight from the 22nd century

How do you define progress?

The biggest challenge I see in similar discussions is that we don't have a shared understanding of what progress because we don't define the goals we're moving towards.

>How do you define progress?

To some people, progress is not being made unless useless middlemen are raking in the bucks and getting more out of the energy you are using than you are.

it's the opposite of congress

I am baffled by this argument. What point are you trying to make? The energy is still being used, just at slightly different times.

> What point are you trying to make?

What's so hard to understand? Children can't do schoolwork after dusk without electricity. Society doesn't function after dusk without massive electricity. Let's do our work while the sun shines brightly is 19th century level behavior.

You're making assumptions here though that children having to do schoolwork after dark is a fundamentally good thing. The same goes for the assumption that society can't function after dusk - what did society do before the lightbulb was invented?

Taking modern norms as a basis for why we need the tech that allows the modern norms is a logical loop. People did learn things before electricity, and electricity didn't predate society.

if you read william kamkwamba's autobiography, you will gain a major appreciation for what a huge improvement functioning after dusk can be. his 12-watt windmill revolutionized his family's life, for the better, even before it made him world-famous

I have little doubt that going from no electricity to 12 watts can be a huge leap, but I'm not familiar with William Kamkwamba. Help me out here, what goals or metrics did he point to when showing that his family's life was better?

read the book

I may. In the meantime is it really so hard to give highlights or an example that at least better explains the point you were raising? Just saying one person felt their life drastixally improved with one change they made isn't really helpful at all, you can find countless anecdotes to make whatever argument you want.

you can do your schoolwork with a 1-watt led, a 10-watt smartphone, or a 30-watt big-screen backlit laptop. if your nighttime electricity costs are a ridiculous 40¢ per kilowatt hour, abstaining from 30 watts 4 hours a night will save you 43 kilowatt hours per year, almost 18 dollars. even in like lesotho those aren't the kinds of loads you'd have a strong economic incentive to shift to the daytime

it's more things like baking dinner in an electric oven, demolishing concrete with an electric hammer, welding with an arc welder, heating the water in your hot-water heater

Yeah, most of the load I cannot move so cost has no effect on my usage it just means I have less disposable income. 75% percent of my bill is network cost so power source cost make little difference to me.

if solar panels on your roof generate the energy, you don't need the network

Well that's where I am heading. but its a failure of society when each person must provide their own utilities.

probably in some places people will figure out how to provide a cheaper network, even if society fails where you live. hopefully you can move

Dude all he suggested is running your dishwasher while at work instead of at night, and you're acting like he wants to end modern life as we know it. Chill.

>Using energy is good, it is progress.

Roger.

Using less energy is even better, it is further progress.

not my downvote btw

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