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Comment by localghost3000 | Hacker News Reader

I worked for tips for many years before one of my regulars helped me with getting into tech (yes I was very lucky). One aspect of this issue that doesn't get talked about a lot is that there is a portion of workers (think bartenders or servers) who work for tips that prefer that system because you can make a LOT of money on certain shifts with the right kind of hustle. To put it another way, if you are working one of these jobs and you have a big expense coming up, you can work your ass off and make more money. Your pay goes up proportionally to your effort. In an hourly job that doesn't happen. You just make what you make. To be clear: I AM NOT DEFENDING TIPPING CULTURE. I am just pointing out that there is a certain cohort of folks who perpetuate it to the detriment of everyone else. When the whole fair wage discussion gets brought up, those folks are the ones who rally the hardest against it. It's kind of insane.

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Yes. When evaluating public opinion, we need to take into account that people who are comfortable with the hustle can make a lot from tips in certain jobs, and these people seem to be the vocal ones about keeping tipping.

There is a common accusation that it's business owners who like tipping because it allows them to keep wages lower. My impression from hearing owners themselves about it is that they also would generally prefer to eliminate tipping. I'd like to hear of any business owner who keeps a tipping system over the objection of the employees.

Not tipping but I have occasionally done some supplementary work as part of my job or otherwise that was either piece-work or hourly and, while I wouldn't have wanted it as my main source of income, there was something nice about being able to bill (at an admittedly nice rate) whenever I was working on a project in any manner.

They wouldn't need to push that hard if there were legal frameworks that paid them what they deserved in the first place.

This segues into what, I think, is the real problem with the status quo tipping system: as much as I love eating out and supporting (and tipping at) great restaurants, the entire business model is unsustainable for all but the largest restaurant groups (who can distribute risk) and was systematically designed around cheap labor.

> They wouldn't need to push that hard if there were legal frameworks that paid them what they deserved in the first place.

Take a moment and re-read my original comment. The cohort I am speaking about values being able to increase their pay proportionate to their effort. An hourly wage. Even a fair one (which is VERY unlikely in the US) would cap their earning potential. That is unacceptable to the group I’m speaking of hence them pushing for the exploitative status quo.

> Take a moment and re-read my original comment. The cohort I am speaking about values being able to increase their pay proportionate to their effort.

Do they declare this pay increase on their income tax form?

Before COVID shut it down, I had picked up bartending as a side gig for something to do on top of my tech job. It wasn't so much about the money for me, so I'd often try bypassing the tipping screen on the machine for the customer... And then they'd get upset with me for doing so.

It's pretty clear that the customers also prefer to give tips. Until you quash that, things can't change. The customer dictates everything in the end.

This definitely is not everyone and may be more for bartending than other services.

You're right, not everyone did tip, but in my experience the vast majority did.

What is certain is that the practice wouldn't exist if the customer didn't like it. I mean, why would someone buy something they don't like? Especially something so frivolous? That wouldn't make any sense. But you could tell that of those who did tip, they got enjoyment out of it.

Question that rises from this sort of thing happening is that, if they are actually making what can be considered a lot of money. Is the current rate too high? Could customers instead tip some fraction and they would still be fine? Let's say drop rate to 5%? Going from a lot to just reasonable amount?

> Question that rises from this sort of thing happening is that, if they are actually making what can be considered a lot of money

You can make over 6 figures at certain jobs/shifts. It's one of the few jobs where thats possible if you don't have a degree or are skilled in a trade. The entire industry is a hugely exploitive closer*ck without many easy answers. The margins in food and beverage are razor thin so having this messed up system where you don't have to pay your labor a living wage kind of perpetuates itself. There is benefit on both ends of the deal. At least for front of house employees. Back of house just gets screwed on every level.

In the UK, it's become fairly common to just have a (supposedly optional) 10% fee for table service. And I assume most people pay that and no more and no less.

Living in country where price you pay is the one next to the item this just seems unnecessary exploitation that is allowed... Price shown should be inclusive of everything. I can accept charging extra for extra service like delivery, but basic service should be in the price.

You are free to print 10% of item price goes to workers, but price should still be one that customer ends up paying in the end.

Hospitality workers have the most glaring conflict of interest, while acting like they are marginalized people whose voices we should listen to.

Respectfully, this is a gross over simplification of the problem. There is a vocal minority of folks, mostly "front of house" that stand to make a decent living. No ones getting rich. It's just that you can make a good wage without a college degree. The appeal is obvious. THAT SAID, the vast majority of workers in hospitality are making poverty wages and working 70+ hours a week in conditions that most of us in our cushy tech jobs would not be able to tolerate. If you've never worked in the industry (and your comment makes me suspect you haven't) then its very hard to understand. It's the kind of thing you have to see.

I’m not sure what the insight here is supposed to be.

Well to elaborate, I see this reality manifested from them as a promotion of tipping, of tipping even higher amounts than the machines prompt, of greater disdain for people the lower their tips are, perpetuating disdain of people by race based on tipping habits.

when it should be directed at management and legislation

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