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Comment by miles | Hacker News Reader

> Compared to prior iPhone models, the iPhone 16 and iPhone 16 Plus are easier to repair. Apple is using an electric battery removal process, and the steps for accessing a battery to replace it are outlined in a separate support document <https://support.apple.com/en-us/120642>. Per Apple's instructions, a 9-volt battery and 9-volt battery clips can be applied to the iPhone 16 battery to remove the adhesive that holds it in place.

"Easier" is relative I guess:

Here’s every tool you’ll need to replace the iPhone 16’s battery https://9to5mac.com/2024/09/20/heres-every-tool-youll-need-t...

* 9-volt battery

* 9-volt battery clips (923-10726)

* Battery press (923-02657)

* Ethanol wipes or isopropyl alcohol (IPA) wipes

* Nylon probe (black stick) (922-5065) or suction cup

* Safety glasses with side shields

* Sand

* Sand container

By contrast, the Treo 650 battery replacement took a few seconds and zero tools.

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Removing a battery attached with previous type of adhesive is torture - the elastic tab frequently tears off, and I ended up a few times having to bend the old battery a lot, to get it out (very unsafe, it starts heating).

So, to me, this is a huge progress. Plus, don’t you normally have 9v battery and some connectors for it already?

The upcoming EU regulation regarding removable batteries is hopefully going to fix this.

Note that the EU regulation isn't asking for 2000s Nokia style removable batteries. It's just about making sure batteries are replacable by users.

These new iPhone batteries seem to be not far off being compliant, if they're not already:

> A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it.

> Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TC1-COD-2020-0...

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237...

This is not progress, this is overengineering pretending to be progress.

Batteries don't need to be glued on in the first place.

No, it helps on a lot of issues. Starting with safety (it reduces damage on drops).

A small amount of adhesive might be justifiable, but the amount used is excessive and seems there primarily to increase ‘repair friction’, in a rather dangerous way - actively increasing the chance of a battery fire when replacement attempts are made.

Apple has to do a lot of these repairs themselves in their stores by retail workers, often under warranty, so they are incentivised to make the repairs easier and cheaper. The more risk of a retail worker screwing up a repair means higher cost of them fixing it by replacing the whole phone.

They're also incentivised to make devices smaller, more waterproof, and increase battery capacity to size ratio. These all push for 'just glue it together'.

Do they actually? I haven't had to have Apple products repaired, but whenever I hear someone giving something in, they get a new or refurbished device instead of their own.

I think Apple is incentivized to trash broken devices, rather than attempt to repair them even themselves, because of the massive margin, and thus low marginal cost. It's more lucrative for them to make the devices unrepairable and have you buy a new one (or give you a new one, if it's under warranty), than make them repairable for everyone.

The warranty period just incentivizes them to make the device better quality so they don't break due to manufacturing defects.

I’ve had my battery replaced and sent family members to have theirs replaced, all at the Apple Store.

All have had smooth experiences. Without AppleCare it’s something like $59 or thereabouts. Apple’s made it very easy to go to an Apple Store to have them replace batteries.

Of course, that doesn’t solve the problem for people without an Apple Store nearby, or that need other repairs.

But at least where I live, I haven’t needed to replace an iPhone battery myself in at least 5-7 years or longer.

That’s because activating a refurbished device is faster than a repair, which leads to higher customer satisfaction and service throughput. It also allows them to centralize analysis and repair of severe damage or noteworthy cases and do it asynchronously.

> or give you a new one, if it's under warranty

But it's even cheaper to give you a tenth of an iPhone if possible. It's why they have these repair guides - they're derivatives of what they use themselves in their own stores.

That's a really good reason, but could you elaborate on the other issues? Just curious.

Don’t forget that first you need to remove the back glass, which requires:

Torque driver (blue, 0.65 kgf cm) (923-0448)

Torque driver (green, 0.45 kgf cm) (923-00105)

Security bit (923-0247)

Micro stix bit (923-01290)

Nylon probe (black stick) (922-5065)

ESD-safe tweezers

Adhesive removal tool (923-09176)

Adhesive cutter (923-01092)

Ethanol wipes or isopropyl alcohol (IPA) wipes

6.1-inch repair tray (923-10712)

Camera cap (923-10716)

Display press (661-08916)

Cut-resistant gloves. Gloves may vary by region.

Heat-resistant gloves. Gloves may vary by region.

Safety glasses with side shields

https://support.apple.com/en-us/120638

Most of this is available in any electronics screwdriver kit.

And the rest is just for safety.

It's amazing how people will think this is anything out of the ordinary for a repair shop

But I guess Apple caters to the people who think getting grease in their hands is beyond them.

No one is stopping you from using a Treo 650.

I remember dropping my treo 650 while hiking. The back cover came off, the battery went flying and worst of all - my memory card was dislodged and disappeared in the woods.

Better than dropping an iPhone, breaking the glass screen/back, then getting angry about the limited repair options…

How is that better? At least the phone is still usable and no data was lost.

If I had had an iphone, I would have just picked it back up.

Was there a point to this story?

I have a pixel 5a with a dead screen that runs but can't be used because the dead part is part of the motherboard not the screen. It's a known problem with this model. So it still runs, but I can't recover any pics or texts from dead people from it because I can't respond to the screen prompts to allow the USB connection.

I don't see how I'm any better off.

Commenter was pointing out a design problem. Your phone has a different design problem. Are you arguing that a device being able to fail in one way makes it ok for it to also be able to fail in other ways?

Use USB-C to connect a hub with display and mouse, copy data over internet.

Could usb-c also connect an ethernet port and/or a flash drive?

I managed to use scrcpy's awesome KVM feature to do just this: it simulates a keyboard and mouse, so fumbling through hitting tab multiple times and enter, the phone showed up as MTP device and I could download the pictures.

Phone had dead display+touchscreen like yours.

Couldn't manage to enable usb debugging so no backups of texts though :/

Nothing solves for data loss except a half decent backup strategy.

Sadly, Verizon is:

CDMA Network Update https://www.verizon.com/prepaid/cdma-network-update/

> Starting Dec 31,2022 we no longer support 3G/4G Non-VoLTE. To keep your service active, upgrade your phone.

You can get a combo 5G hotspot plus power bank and tape it to the back of your device. Then you can keep using your device on WiFi alone.

Better to use rubber bands. You don’t want to have to remove that Apple-like adhesive tape when hot-swapping batteries like a quick-draw gun slinger.

Not just Verizon; the literal FCC, who licenses and restricts what bandwidth can be used for what purpose.

The FCC did not mandate the transition:

Why are 3G networks being phased out? https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/plan-ahead-phase-out-3g...

> As mobile carriers seek to upgrade their networks to use the latest technologies, they periodically shut down older services, such as 3G, to free up spectrum and infrastructure to support new services, such as 5G. Similar transitions have happened before. For example, some mobile carriers shut down their 2G networks when they upgraded their networks to support 4G services. Mobile carriers have the flexibility to choose the types of technologies and services they deploy, including when they decommission older services in favor of newer services to meet consumer demands.

The same way that McDonald’s or H&R Block are preventing you from using a Treo 650. Those companies also do not provide cellular service compatible with that phone.

The main difference being that Verizon sold me the phone and supported it on their network until they didn't. So yes, the Treo 650 still turns on and can be used without voice or data service, but claiming that Verizon is no more preventing me from using it than McDonald's or H&R Block in this case seems disingenuous.

In contrast, the Treo 650 battery was considerably smaller in terms of capacity and significantly bigger in terms of physical size, leading to a bulkier device that had a significantly lower resolution, colour and physically sized screen. Lets not pretend the state of the art has not moved on.

The last few are just for your safety and can obviously be skipped if you feel like being a cowboy. And to me, “zero tools” makes it sound like that’s your preferred approach. So why count them against one phone but not the other?

It's almost like Apple is maliciously complying by overcomplicating the procedure, which is not surprising.

> almost like Apple is maliciously complying by overcomplicating the procedure

Sorry, which of a 9-volt battery, alcohol wipes, safety glasses or sand (and a container for it) screams inaccessible? (And everything there is technically optional. I doubt most Treo 650 users drained the battery before touching it, or bothered with a suction cup.)

Removing the back glass takes special tools, but I'll take that over having to replace my phone every time it gets wet.

> Sorry, which of a 9-volt battery, alcohol wipes, safety glasses or sand (and a container for it) screams inaccessible?

On my Librem 5, I can replace the battery without any tools.

What you can’t do with your Librem 5 is submerge it in water, so you keep using your phone and I’ll take the option with glue.

I've got some flashlights that can go to 100m+ in water without any glue, and they run on removable C batteries.

And let's not forget the GoPro.

Not "inaccessible" but totally unnecessary. Why the bloody hell do you need a 9-volt battery to replace the battery!?!?

Removing the back glass takes special tools, but I'll take that over having to replace my phone every time it gets wet.

Gaskets have been around for over a century.

Their own repair guide states you can use literally any DC power supply, up to 30V. No need to waste 9Vs when you can use an off the shelf DC supply.

Apparently the 9v battery runs enough current through the metallic case of the battery to melt and release the adhesive so you can pull the old battery out. Seems like a pretty clever solution, if not a bit over-engineered: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/06/28/new-battery-replacement...

Gaskets require pressure. Adhesive doesn't. Different solutions for different problems.

Was the Treo 650 waterproof? :)

Not this again :). Just taking a random example: the Samsung S5 was IPX67 rated (up to 1m for 30min), was thinner than an iPhone 16, and had a replaceable battery. Admittedly, it has fewer mAh, but it's also older battery technology and the volume of the phone case is slightly smaller (and probably has bigger electronics).

Is should be totally possible to make a good 2024 flagship with replaceable batteries, but we'd have to forgo the fancy glass back panels.

> Not this again :)

The problem with this logic is that phones are complicated and have a lot of constraints. Phone design inherently involves numerous tradeoffs.

So... of course it's possible for manufacturers like Apple and Samsung to create a thin, waterproof phone with no-tool battery replacement.

But at a cost to other features.

The market has shown repeatedly that few consumers value no-tool battery replacements, relative to various other features they'd have to give up to get it. People are voting with their wallets and it doesn't make sense for Apple, Samsung, etc., to build phones people don't really want.

> The market has shown repeatedly that few consumers value no-tool battery replacements, relative to various other features they'd have to give up to get it. People are voting with their wallets and it doesn't make sense for Apple, Samsung, etc., to build phones people don't really want.

It costs those manufacturers next to nothing to make the battery replaceable. What is does cost the is future sales of phones, because now people could swap in a 15$ replacement battery instead of choosing between (1) pay 150$ for a replacement or (2) just get a new phone.

This isn't about the market not wanting to pay the extra 5$ it would take, this is about the manufacturer deciding there is more money to be made this way.

We never truly had a choice. The fact of the matter is people's choice of phone brand is sticky, and manufacturers abuse that. If you've had the Galaxy S5 and needed a new phone at no point did you have the choice between an S7 with or without replaceable battery. It's get the S7 without, or screw you - get a worse phone.

> It costs those manufacturers next to nothing to make the battery replaceable.

Are you sure about that? I notice Apple charges $99 for, e.g., an iPhone 15 battery replacement, not $150. And iFixit charges $44 for an iPhone 15 battery, not $15 (not to mention, a user-replaceable one would need changes, like a case, which would tend to make them more expensive). I wonder if you have an understanding of the cost to phones in terms of price and/or loss of other features to make their batteries user-replaceable without tools.

> Its get the S7 without, or screw you - get a worse phone.

Yep. But it’s not to screw you. It’s because they can’t create that phone with the replaceable battery you want, not without making it worse and/or more expensive.

Non authenticc, organically sourced, non-gmo Apple(R) batteries cost way less than 44$

> What is does cost the is future sales of phones, because now people could swap in a 15$ replacement battery instead of choosing between (1) pay 150$ for a replacement or (2) just get a new phone.

This argument is undermined by Apple putting a user configurable 80% charge limiter in recent iPhones that extends battery life multiple times over.

(And that's on top of the smart charging to avoid charging to full if not needed, added many models ago.)

> forgo the fancy glass back panels.

Plastic is just meh.. I'd rather have an unrepairable device than one made of plastic.

(We can't have metal because of the wireless charging)

Or perhaps get Samsung Xcover Pro - removable battery and IP68 rating (and audio jack!) https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover6_pro-11600.php

Is gluing the battery inside the case really a requirement for waterproofing?

When they remove the battery cover -- "oh, waterproofing"

When they glue the battery amd remove all screws -- "oh, waterproofing"

When they eventually require an approved persons blood sample to perform repair, will I also hear the "oh, waterproofing" thing?

It was water-indifferent, like a Jeep.

(Kidding. I did love mine and I did not protect it, and I'm sure it got rained on many times, but I don't know if I ever literally hosed water through it. :)

Do people go swimming with their phones?

Older devices could generally handle splashes, e.g being used in light rain. Water damage seemed far less likely than drop damage.

Yes, I do.

But that's most likely 1% of the market. They can have their own phones. The rest of us just want water resistance for accidental contact with water and easily replaceable batteries.

I think you’re in a techie bubble. I would wager more people care about better water resistance (for example, because they want to use their phone in the shower) than about easily replaceable batteries.

The overwhelming majority of people will never even contemplate trying to replace their own battery no matter how easy it is (unless it’s literally 90s/2000s-style snap on).

We have our own phone, it's the iPhone. I paid the money for it because I wanted the full package. You can buy your own kind of phone that's not the full package. Many different vendors are making that.

The iPhone is not waterproof, it's IP68 rated meaning it's water resistant. Swimming with your phone is absolutely not recommended and I don't know a single person that does this (unless we count people using special waterproof cases for filming).

So no, the average smartphone buyer does not swim with their phone. Manufacturers had other incentives to make changing the batteries harder and there was no pressure from customers to increase the IP rating. In fact all you hear is people ranting how much it sucks that batteries are so hard to change these days.

Is that all you hear? I don't hear that at all. People around me didn't change the battery when it was easy either. I was always like an alien when I suggested it.

I remember when the iPhone first came out non-tech friends had recurring nightmares about forgetting to take their phone out of their pocket before swimming.

Phones being waterproof is a huge QOL improvement

Who is us? Likely a similar sized segment that wants to tinker and are Louis Rossman fans.

Oh, give me a break.

You can still do all the same shit with iFixit tools. These are just the genuine tools aimed at repair shops.

These are basic items, much of it safety gear.

This is a state of the art micro computer. Of course it will require tools to handle correctly.

That is significantly easier than trying to remove a glued-on battery.

And removable batteries require far more internal space which is why they fell out of favour.

And removable batteries require far more internal space

No they don't. Less than 1% extra volume.

that seems not possible but i'm just guessing. where are you getting the 1% from?

Please provide source.

Especially given that you would want to preserve some form of water resistance.

Meaning you either (a) have the entire back be removable or (b) a battery injection mechanism similar to a Leica SL3. Both of which would seem to need far more than 1% extra volume.

Comparable battery capacity, materials and technology? No.

"every tool you need" sounds like basic stuff for a repair shop

Nobody is going and buying the Apple 9v battery or "Apple sand"

ah yes the readily available custom "Battery press (923-02657)"

https://cdsassets.apple.com/live/SZLF0YNV/images/tp/bucket_3...

I think we just found a use for all those Juicero's destined for the landfill.

This seems to be a new device, should be a matter of weeks to have a similar tool show up in Amazon, etc

There are alternative devices one could use, or you know, just use the tools you have, as long as you keep the pressure smooth. Possibly a Juicero kind of device

With a steady hand something like this would work fine: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00409KRB4

Hardly, needs something more like this.

https://www.gasparini.com/en/the-worlds-largest-hydraulic-pr...

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