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  The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good. It isn’t.

Amen! There so many flaws to touchscreens.

With the most common touchscreen implementations:

• user must hover hand above screen to avoid errant 'clicks' which is physically tiresome during prolonged use

• user cannot locate button without looking at screen, and feedback, if any, is several ms delayed (ie: till audio 'click' sound plays)

• user cannot easily control GUI on large, or multiple displays, since input-to-output scale is 1-to-1

• user cannot view the content under the target without workarounds (eg: iOS's loop widget) since user's finger blocks part of screen, and a human finger is relatively large compared to screen

>iOS's loop widget

You mean the magnifying glass during text selection?

Oops, maybe the spelling is 'loupe', but yes.

It is. And outside of contexts where a particular trade or profession uses them as a tool, they're typically called magnifying glasses.

I don't know for certain, but I suspect Adobe introduced its 'loupe tool' in 1987 when it released Photoshop. Whether or not 'loupe' is pretentious, it is now a ubiquitous term in the software industry. It's also four syllables shorter than 'magnifying glass' which, in my view (and when correctly spelled!), absolves it.

Perhaps there were multiple iterations of the Garmin Edge 530, and we're talking about two different interfaces, but this is the process for zooming and panning the map on my Edge 530:

From the map screen, to change zoom, hold a button until a +/- appears next to other buttons. Use those other buttons to zoom in or out. To pan up or down, hold that same button again, until up/down arrows appear next to the other buttons. Use those other buttons to pan up or down. To pan left or right, repeat this process once more.

The entire value proposition of a bike mounted map is to be able to navigate without stopping to use your phone. But if the interface to adjust the map is this cumbersome, stopping to look at a phone is the smart move, never mind the better user experience.

Good point! I still call that an Easter Egg because it is hidden. It took me months until I figured out that a long press on Enter allows movement of the map viewpoint. And then there is the sub menu providing the same feature.

For outsiders:

You’re move the map by turning your handlebar and riding in another direction. It automatically follows your position, heading and zooms in an out (depending on travel speed and upcoming turns). And routes are planned ahead of time on the computer (i. e. GPX) because you usually don’t want the shortest route between to points.

So the feature flyingcircus is mentions isn’t needed?

It is seldom needed. You can use it if a road is blocked to search the area for alternatives or looking for another riders current position (GroupTrack is awesome and complicated to setup) if far away.

The 840 (buttons + touch) solves that, for twice the price and is bigger/heavier. Or if you want avoid touch, more buttons :)

The old eTrex series feature a kind of TrackPoint serving as cursor-keys and enter-keys. I kept mine, because it shows many good design decisions (AA-Batteries, SD-Card, TrackPoint…) but of course it cannot compete with the Edge 530 (Turn-By-Turn Nav, Training-Status, Sensors, WiFi…).

An Edge with this kind of TrackPoint would be awesome.

> The rise of the touchscreens are an accident. Because MBAs believe iPhone == touch == good.

Which they are, given the application. It also goes beyond size and cost. How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket?

Don't get me wrong. I have an ereader with buttons because I like buttons. Yet those buttons are not going to endure the same amount of abuse as they would on a phone.

> How long will those tactile buttons last

Button manufacturers rate their products for this kind of thing. ie. "10k cycles" (not that high), "1M cycles" (better), etc.

So it really depends upon the device manufacturer to pick something appropriate.

Random examples:

• https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1336473

Datasheet for that has 10k cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/512f/0900766b8137f3b1.pdf

• https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/push-button-switches/1759621

Datasheet for that lists 1M cycles: https://docs.rs-online.com/4ef8/0900766b81680212.pdf

> How long will those tactile buttons last

I can say without a doubt that I've had more touchscreens fail on me in my life than buttons. This is despite buttons being far more common for most of my lifespan.

> How long will those tactile buttons last, particularly given that the device is meant to be used frequently and is frequently stuffed into a pocket?

Decades. Which I guess is too much for a world that's driven by "value engineering".

I mean, we actually have hard data for this. "Dumb phones" (even those that would run J2ME and had apps and stuff) can easily last for decades, and their buttons work fine after 5+ years of intensive use[0]. In contrast, it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job.

--

[0] - I would know - I graduated high school around when the first iPhone was released. If you weren't of similar age at that time, then believe me when I say it: there is no tougher test for durability of a phone keyboard than having been used by a teenager back then. There was no Messenger or WhatsApp, phone calls were expensive, and videocalls were the thing for super rich, so all the friendships and romance of that age meant texting 24/7, hammering the shit out of the keyboard, day in, day out, for years. Never once heard of anyone's keyboard breaking under the load.

In your personal experience, does no one use phone cases or what?

This is outsourcing a problem solution to the user. And the covers are a mere workaround.

   * Shall not be needed for a well designed device.
   * Covers are ugly.
   * Make devices even bigger than they are already.
   * Don’t protect against high forces.

Don’t get me wrong. A cover reduces the risks. My phone is alive despite I don’t use one but that is luck (and some care).

Manufacturers get away with weird design decisions.

   * Hard (fragile) screens. Somewhat okay?
   * Camera lenses extending out of device body.
   * Camera bump extending out of device body.
   * Glued sealant instead of replaceable sealing rubber (Apple *does not* guarantee that the iPhone survives water - the glued sealant ages).
   * Glas backside to make it more fragile. Which improves Qi-Charging needed for metal bodies. Which wouldn’t be needed with polymers bodies.

And then there is the Nokia 5110. Surfing everything except water. And the next gen? Nokia built the antenna inside because they improved it. The didn’t sold „more is better“. Nokia improved the device itself :)

Of course everyone is using phone cases - without them, hardly any smartphone would last a month without needing a screen replacement.

(It was better a decade ago, when smartphones were still thick and made of hard plastic. Now that they're all thin and metal, they're too slippery to handle safely.)

I'm not using a phone case, never have. You can have a smartphone for many years if you don't mind micro-scratches. Just don't drop it too often from too high up.

> it's rare to find someone whose smartphone lasted more than a year without getting its screen cracked, or three years without at least one screen replacement job

How? I've used smartphones without any case since the Galaxy S1 and I have never had a cracked screen.

But yeah, I definitely prefer physical keys too. Since the Blackberry Passport every newer phone was a disappointment. If they made a new one with updated hardware and unlocked Android I'd preorder it immediately.

> never had a cracked screen

That is interesting. People usually just buy screen protectors and call it a day since screens are pretty fragile and phones hate gravity.

Possible reason/s for not having a cracked screen for 15 years:

1) No kids around

2) No wife/fiancé around

3) not much of a social life

4) never walked in public with phone in use

5) phone only used in certain places with carpets to cushion fall.

6) only ever had 2 smartphones. The other is the beefy CAT phone.

7) not a sports fan

8) the phone is hardly ever used for anything more than a simple call or text.

Is it any of the above?

> How? I've used smartphones without any case since the Galaxy S1 and I have never had a cracked screen.

The only smartphone in my close circles I know to have outlasted its usefulness without having its screen cracked is an LG P350 - my first ever smartphone (which incidentally was barely powerful enough to run its own OS; from then on, I always just saved up money and bought a flagship). Since then, I've seen friends getting new Pixels one day, and breaking their screens the next; in the Galaxy line alone, I had my S4 screen replaced twice, I personally replaced the screen in my wife's S3, my S7 died with a black screen after hitting the pavement (it was in a case, but the impact angle was unlucky); my wife just got the screen replaced on her S23. A family member broke a new Galaxy Tab when their briefcase hit the ground, etc. Same for cheaper devices too.

(EDIT: well, OK, my wife's Huawei P8 didn't live long enough to get its screen broken - 6 months in, it wasn't able to make a phone call without freezing. Replaced it with an S9, whose screen theoretically never cracked - instead, at some point, top half of the display got hue-shifted towards pink.)

Things got much worse when phones became glass/metal instead of glass/plastic; I personally am not brave enough to operate a modern smartphone without a case while standing on hard floor (bathroom tiles, or pavement outside).

I don't know - maybe myself and people around me all have really bad luck? Regardless, before smartphones, neither the screen nor the buttons were particularly fragile; you only ever worried about breaking the plastic case (or the flip mechanism in flip phones) after using the phone as a hammer one too many times...

Feature phones were entirely different beasts. Screens were typically smaller, and much better protected (either with a platic window covering the screen or by the keyboard folding over the screen, which also protected the buttons). Likewise, the buttons tended to be much better protected (either when folded closed, or by having a keyboard on a slider). On top of that, they were very user hostile. Consider your texting example. Between cost and size, most people were repeatedly bashing each key on a numeric keypad to get a single letter. Few phones had touch screens (the screens were too small for them to be practical), so navigating through options was considerably more difficult.

Oh, I know that alternatives existed. Complete keyboards. Larger screens (but by no means large by current standards) with touch input complimenting the keyboard. I had one of them. Yet it was nothing compared to what we have today, and I doubt that we could have what we have today with what we had then (buttons!) without seriously compromising the size of the device or the durability of those buttons.

I've got a BlackBerry Key2 that runs Android. The only reason I am about to replace it is that it has a locked bootloader and I can't upgrade Android, and several key apps I rely on have dropped support for Android 8. (Hooray for "secure" bootloaders.)

It was made in 2019, if I could hand it to you I think you'd reconsider your beliefs about what is and isn't possible, it's a very well-made device, the keyboard is lovely. It has one pretty fun feature which might be counter to the spirit of this thread - the entire keyboard is touch-sensitive and functions as a touchpad area. Software support for this is hit-or-miss, but I'm going to miss it when I have to get rid of it for an all-touch device. Especially I will miss being able to easily use my phone when there's rain drizzling.

> Dear device manufacturers. Please used high quality switches with travel, resistance and a click „BIPPITY-BUMP“. Add a spring. Built in a indicator light within!

Essentially, you are asking what the avionics industry is already doing. Just look at the cockpit of a plane.

Unfortunately, if you then look at the price tag attached to that plane, you'll know why no one else is doing it :/.

Planes are expensive due to the difficulty of certifying them and maintaining the right to sell them under various regulations, not because they're using physical switches.

Yes, but large price and low volume (and actual technical acceptance criteria) also means they're not gonna be obsessing over saving fractional cents on control panels.

MBAs? Biggest advocates I've seen for touchscreen are product designers, they tend to be obsessed with perfectly flat, unobstructed surfaces.

Designers can be the bane of usability. Small text is an example. There's a strong conflict between "design for usability" and "design for looks". Function versus form.

Amen, I use a Unihertz Titan for this reason.