Comment by dwc | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dwc | Hacker News Reader

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So I recently decided to learn Go myself, after decades of hearing about it from fellow techies. It's incredibly difficult. I read, downloaded apps, and then signed up on DGS as 30kyu (the lowest rank) and have lost every game except for one I won on timeout. I stink. Playing Go is a paradigm shift. Knowing (and being good at) other games is almost irrelevant at my level. This is a little like coming to pure functional programming after decades of kicking ass in the imperative programming world. And like that, smarts and experience will give me a leg up. But later.

So many times, as a smart and capable person, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel in a new endeavor. Even when I don't really see it I trust it's there if I can grasp even a little. But with some things you just feel lost, and that's very difficult for smart people.

This is so different from learning a game like backgammon. One summer in my mid-teens, a friend and I played many times daily over a summer. I've rarely played since, but the strategy is easy enough for a smart person that I can hold my own against anyone except world class players. That's a bit to one extreme, but it's closer to the average experience of a smart developer.

Finding things that I just can't grok after a few minutes of thinking about them (and there are many) has made me more accepting of my limits, and raised my awareness that some things take a mental shift and/or really are complex.

I don't think it's that strange. Ultimately you have to play in order to read ahead in the game. People who think they can sit down and learn to read ahead will struggle. But if you start actually playing, a lot of the basic reading ahead will become second nature and then it's on to harder/deeper reading. The same is true of chess. Someone given the rules and a set can't hope to get it in any meaningful way though it is theoretically possible. For Go, if you can find people better than you to play against and keep it up for a year you'll look back and realize that even your initial worries were just a misunderstanding. DGS is not a good place to start. You need to play in volume. Bulk practice.

Go is worse in this respect than chess.

In chess, in principle, you can sit down and think through every possible combination in a simple position and figure out tactical traps. After doing this a few times you learn what sort of things to look for.

In go, even for simple problems, there are too many possibilities to think through all possibilities. Until you can start to recognize key points, nobody can even explain to you how to think about problems.

I'll take your advice regarding volume/bulk. It seems sound to me. I took up chess a bit more than a year ago, and tactics practice and non-stop playing have done more for my game than any reading.

sorry, by 'read' I meant calculate. Calculation is the chess term, reading is the Go equivalent.

It's incredibly difficult. I read, downloaded apps

What apps?

http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoPlayingPrograms

I found the link raganwald gave. Of those, I found SmartGo Kifu to be excellent, in that it has a tutorial that walks you through many basic concepts in Go. That I have not become proficient is not their fault.

If you're losing that badly, you need a bigger handicap. A lot bigger.

Yes, that would help. There are other things that would also help. Just now I'm in a holding pattern on learning Go. When I come back to it I'll go over basics again, play on small boards, and play more real time games. Anything else you'd recommend for me?

The biggest tip is that for a while you'll be playing high handicap games. Don't try to attack. Just try to pick what to defend. If while your attacker carves out a chunk you manage to defend a bigger chunk, you'll win. As you improve in defense, your handicap comes down. After a while you'll find that the skills you're learning in defense also apply to attack.

And the very first rule to learn is that if you create a solid wall and leave someone with little space, their stones will either die or be left alive on little territory. Which happens doesn't matter to you, and you don't have to figure out the details - just keep on limiting them and things will work out. If ever it comes to direct conflict, you'll give them opportunities - that is the game they need you to play to have a chance. So don't give them the opportunity.

Oh, and always start a wall at least 1 space away from them to limit their tactical chances.

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