Comment by jmyeet | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jmyeet | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

A difficult part of all this is that fascism doesn't have a universal definition. If anything, it's a subjective test of traits. I personally think Umberto Eco's definition is a good starting point [1].

But a key part is that there has to be an in-group and an out-group [2], which pretty much requires some great moral panic or perceived threat. For this reason you may hear the description that fascism is a "suicide cult". Why? Because the in-group continually shrinks as out-groups are eliminated and new out-groups are found.

A good example of this is describing the "Judeo-Christian" country. If there's one thing I can guarantee, it's the Christian fascist movement ever succeeds in eliminating its perceived enemies, they'll turn on Jewish people next.

Attacking those who worked on J6 prosecutions does two things: it feeds into the narrative about the "deep state" and identifies a new out-group to rally around.

American conservatism is fascism. It's only purpose is to punish one's perceived enemies. Cruelty is the point. Chaos is the point. All of this distracts from the true purpose: looting from the public purse. $8 trillion of the nation's ~$35T in national debt in the almost 250 year history of the US happened between 2016 and 2020. The vast majority of this was wealth transfer to the ultra-wealthy. 2024 to 2028 will be that on steroids.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

[2]: https://www.resilience.org/stories/2018-10-23/how-fascism-wo...

Obama, 8 years: 9.5

Trump, 4 years: 7.8

Biden, 4 years: 8.4

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/mar/12/joe-biden/...

https://www.investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and...

It’s not that I don’t think the debt is a problem, but it’s also typically a conservative talking point. Given your rhetoric on conservatism, and your representation of the facts, it seems unlikely to me you actually care about this.

I dunno, I think it's a real point badly made.

In the first Trump administration, people talked about the emoluments clause and all the ways Trump was getting extra revenue from charging the Secret Service for hotel rooms at his properties when they were protecting him, or pressuring foreign diplomats to stay at his hotel to curry favor, etc etc. But the scale of this stuff was tiny in comparison to federal spending and wouldn't show up on any graph of the national debt or the federal budget.

But then he not only got away with everything, the SCOTUS ruling on immunity for "official acts" gives him broad protection for basically anything going forward. If he was directing Musk to use that Treasury Department payment system to send huge deposits directly to Trump's accounts, there would be no consequences. There's no reason not to milk the office for everything he can, and the institutional safeguards have collapsed.

> the SCOTUS ruling on immunity for "official acts" gives him broad protection for basically anything going forward

How is this any different than the qualified immunity given to many law enforcement officers? I mean, personally I am in favor of qualified immunity going away…but why is it surprising that the president wouldn’t have something similar?

Seems to me that both a LEO as well as the president can lose their immunity if it’s determined that what they have done that they need immunity from falls outside of “official acts”. Might be harder to prove for the president, but not insurmountable.

IANAL:

- to my understanding, qualified immunity of law enforcement or other government officials is from civil lawsuits; if I get injured while being arrested, I can't sue the arresting officer. It also only applies while they're actually doing their job, and not violating clearly established law.

- the presumptive immunity that SCOTUS claims the president enjoys is a shield from criminal prosecution. The definition of "official acts" is unclear but seems to extend to tweeting to a mob during one's term in office.

But further, I think in context the SCOTUS recognition of such an immunity was surprising because it came after the DOJ had maintained that even if Trump was committing crimes in office, it was against department policy to prosecute him while in office, and then once he's out of office and charges are pursued, the court claimed that charges still could not be pursued.

> the president can lose their immunity if it’s determined

Determined by the 6-3 conservative court? I think that's unrealistic.

He said in his first campaign that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not suffer any consequences, and it turns out he was right.

> qualified immunity of law enforcement or other government officials is from civil lawsuits;

To a degree law enforcement officers are immunized by their official acts. Where as some of those same acts are inherently criminal if a civilian was to do them. The argument being that police need an assurance that a violent act they must undertake (that would be criminally illegal for a civilian to do) in the course of doing their duty will not be, by default, prosecuted as if they were a civilian.

I think it’s not that different an argument for the president. A good example is President Obama’s drone strike against Al-Awlaki which essentially was a pretty stark violation of the 6th Amendment. That same immunity protection applies here as well. By arguing that fighting the war on terror as an official duty of the president, the President has immunity from the criminal act of intentionally killing a US citizen as a part of that duty.

> He said in his first campaign that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not suffer any consequences

Obvious bluster about his popularity and not relevant. However even to do that today he would need to have the predicate of it being an official act, without that he would be liable…and from what I have seen of this court, the conservative justices do not always vote in lockstep with each other.

>He said in his first campaign that he could shoot someone on fifth avenue and not suffer any consequences, and it turns out he was right.

Actually, that would probably be one of the few things that fail the "official act" test. Ordering the military to shoot someone, however....

> But a key part is that there has to be an in-group and an out-group [2], which pretty much requires some great moral panic or perceived threat.

But the outgroup can't be too big. Otherwise it becomes capable of real (rather than just apparent) resistance. Making "those who think crimes were committed on January 6th, and that those crimes should be prosecuted" the outgroup may be a strategic error, because that's far too many people.

I think, if this is following the fascist playbook, it's doing so accidently and badly. I think he's just trying to punish everyone who ever told him he did something wrong. (And make it so no one will do so ever in the future, so maybe that is part of the fascist playbook.)

> American conservatism is fascism. It's only purpose is to punish one's perceived enemies. Cruelty is the point. Chaos is the point.

That's not conservativism. That's the shell of conservativism after a hostile takeover. There's plenty of conservatives who are appalled at all this.

> $8 trillion of the nation's ~$35T in national debt in the almost 250 year history of the US happened between 2016 and 2020.

True. Now do 2020-2024.

>That's not conservativism.

Sure it is. You may not like it, but the hostile takeover was successful and you can't pretend it wasn't by disclaiming it. Today's conservative GOP are what they are, and pretending otherwise or playing semantics does no one any good -- except if you're defending those fascists.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com