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Comment by kube-system | Hacker News Reader

I think this is annoying, but given that the basic functionality works, it personally wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me. I don't normally do anything fancy with the settings on my dishwasher, I just want it to wash the dishes. I'd rather have a dishwasher that puts delay and eco mode behind an app, than some shitty dishwasher that doesn't clean the dishes well on the "normal" setting.

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This reminds me of the EU regulations, which not only:

1. _require_ dishwashers to have an Eco mode, not locked behind anything, but also

2. _require_ Eco mode to be the default. If you buy a dishwasher in the EU and turn it on, and press "start", it'll be on Eco mode, the mode that uses the least water/power.

If you don't care about the dishwasher other than to turn it on, and it works for you, then everybody wins. If it doesn't wash as much as you'd like, or takes longer thank you'd like, you can still have all the other dishwasher modes (express, intensive, etc.).

The whole point of the regulation is to make the default mode the most energy efficient. I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.

The weird thing about eco modes is that they often don’t use less water or power. I live off grid, and just as a function of my setup I know exactly what consumes what. My Bosch dishwasher, on a normal 70C dish cycle, uses about 4.5L of water and 1.6kWh. On eco mode, it uses 8L of water, and 1.8kWh. Takes twice as long though.

Similar with my AEG washer - a 40 degree cotton wash uses marginally more water than a 40 degree eco wash, but less power - and is 25% quicker.

Honestly, it’s not clear what the economy is supposed to be. Intensity of demand? Except on each appliance the heater runs at the same rated wattage when it’s heating - just different patterns of usage on eco mode, more off and on.

That's a really weird thing. In the EU, not only is Eco mode mandatory, and must be the default mode, and you can't label any other mode "default" or "normal" to sway the consumer to use that instead... but it's also how the appliance's energy rating is calculated, and it's displayed prominently on every device sold. It would be madness for a company not to put their most efficient settings on Eco mode.

https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

You can also see there that they're tracking the effects of their regulations and measuring how much less electricity and water is used. The regulations also set minimum standards for cleaning, drying and energy usage so you can't sell products that look efficient but require everything washed twice, nor can you even include a resource hog mod.

And it mandates the availability of spare parts for a certain number of years, and access to repair information, so you don't just junk the whole object.

I can only imagine "Eco" mode being worse than other modes in some place where there's not good market regulation.

I just checked my own dishwasher, and its Eco mode uses 9L of water and 0.83kWh per cycle. Other washing modes use 9-17L water and 0.9-1.5kWh per cycle... so it does conform to the regulations.

Just as an anecdote - that's not my experience, and I have a smart power plug to measure it too. On my Bosch Series 6 dishwasher, Eco Mode comes consistently in at 1.2kWh per cycle, while the intensive 70C cycle is around 1.6kWh. I have no way of measuring water usage though, but in terms of energy the ECO mode is really the most efficient.

Is 70c normal? Wont that mess up plastic items?

Yes, it's normal (should be above 65C, anyway). Yes, even "dishwasher-safe" plastic items often warp or discolor in a normal hot dishwashing cycle. I wouldn't put anything plastic or fragile in the dishwasher, but virtually everything in the kitchen is ceramic, glass, or stainless steel, so.

It's fine for anything rated to be "dishwasher safe" IME.

Why would a German company apply feel-good but ultimately counter-productive regulation to customers where they don't have to?

> counter-productive

The opposite, actually. Productive. Millions of litres of water and terawatts of power saved per year. End users collectively saving €1.3 billion on water and electricity costs in 2020 (in comparison to them having standard dishwashers from 1990 before any eco targets were set)

https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/product-list/...

Not shown: water wasted from pre-washing dishes or having to run multiple cycles because the new eco-modes don't do the job properly. Also from manually washing dishes because the dishwasher is blocked for longer (and even longer once you add the extended drying time required due to the lower temperatures).

Shown: the regulations actually set minimum cleaning and drying requirements, for precisely that reason - the equipment has to do the job properly.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:...

It's almost as if they already thought this through when making the regulation.

Not shown: the EU cleaning requirements are inadequate in reality which is why dishwashers previously defaulted to higher-energy modes - because those modes are the ones that actually work reliably for users. It's almost like the regulations are ideologically motivated rather than having anything to do with reality.

That sounds annoying too. I want the default to be the one that does what I want it to do, clean a normal load of dishes, and do a good job at it. My dishwasher defaults to the last mode I set it to.

> I find it absolutely crazy that a German company, when given free rein in the USA, would actually paywall Eco mode. It's just mind-boggling.

... they didn't do that. There is no paywall.

Perhaps I misspoke, but needing a network connection, needing a smartphone, giving over your details, very likely getting marketing materials you didn't want via app notifications, or email, requiring to comply with terms of service, and at any time the company is free to rescind or change the offer, to me is "paywalling". You are paying out, giving them things of real value, over and above buying the device, and if you don't then they're blocking functionality.

All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.

It's annoying, but it's not a paywall.

> All the functionality should be in the device itself, and require no sign-up or ongoing relationship with the company to use it.

For a dishwasher yes, but I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. There are cloud connected devices that I really like. e.g. I like to run my Roomba on-demand after I leave my house, and I think that's an entirely reasonable use case.

Many other devices are useful away from home as well, which would all require internet connectivity. e.g. security systems, cameras, etc.

The internet doesn't need to be the cloud.

Security cameras are the classic example of widespread self hosted but internet-accessible.

Even the ones that have proprietary apps are often just alternative frontends to a web server running on the home network.

It does when the end user is being a NAT and a firewall and they don't know how to configure it. Legacy IPs cameras are notorious for being difficult-to-impossible for consumers to install, and when they managed to do so, they were often set up insecurely.

The typical MJPEG/ONVIF camera doesn't even remotely compete for the same customers as Ring/Nest/Blink.

> not a paywall

You pay with your data

Nobody uses the word that way. You give HN the ability to use all user-contributed data. Nobody would say HN is paywalled.

It's true that the companies wouldn't want you to use the word "pay", but that's what it is.

When you register at HN you know that they need some data to manage your user account, for the same reason cookie banners aren't needed if all of a site's cookies are required for it to function. A dishwasher doesn't need a wifi connection or data to clean dishes, and if it's not clearly advertised before purchase that's effectively a hidden cost.

Perhaps nobody uses the word like that so far, but if enough people did it probably would turn out better for the consumer.

It really is annoying. And if I have to switch modes I normally go for the 70C power wash instead of "normal" setting to make sure everything gets clean too.

> ... they didn't do that. There is no paywall.

Where I live internet access isn’t provided for free.

Where I live housing isn’t provided for free; are all dishwashers paywalled?

Y’all are doing acrobatics to twist the definition of a very common and clear word.

My dishwasher wasn’t free either.

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