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Comment by v5v3 | Hacker News Reader

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I don’t see political dissidents being killed left and right in my western country. I don’t see minorities being arrested and killed just for being different in my country. I don’t see blatant forced labor being the norm in my country. We do have dark moments in our history, and we do have our own issues at home (not the US btw), but it’s nowhere near what’s happening in Saudi Arabia so don’t try to play to tie (“jugar al empate” as we say here).

If you’re speaking Spanish and using that football-inspired phrase you’re almost certainly in a country with a highly problematic past if not present.

As all countries. I acknowledge that above.

Why would you see any political dissidents been killed or imprisoned unlawfully?

If the media won't tell you, how will you find out?

There are plenty of ways of finding out this day and age. The difference is that no one is getting arrested for posting something on X, or for whistleblowing.

You don’t see it because your media is corrupt.

True, and we don't see it in Saudi because their media is either owned by the dictatorship or chopped to pieces.

There are certainly evil things in the west but nothing to compare with things like cutting people's heads off for having gay sex or following the wrong religion or punishing rape victims.

You do not realise how privileged people in the west are - as someone who has lived inn a country that was bad at the time (nothing like Saudi Arabia but things such as journalists being disappeared and a nasty civil war) westerners who say "oh, its just the same" make me really just look delusional and completely unaware of their privilege.

We literally have a western country opening fire on unarmed people queuing for food in the same region. It's literally on the front page right now. Prosecutors for those crimes have had their accounts frozen by Microsoft.

So yeah, no. Statements about human rights have no credibility.

The last thing anyone needs advice about human rights is from the west. The invasions and mass murders in wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Iran, Libya. Still remember that pr*ck Colin Powell showing that vial to justify that invasion of Iraq. The world's worst murderers have been the British, Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish and American empires throughout history. The worst genocide in history was committed by Belgium in Congo where they killed millions.

Lol no one gets their head cut off for gay sex or wrong religion. Capital punishment is only for murder, terrorism, rape and drug smugglers. The Saudi Government is quite liberal there. It's your own Saudi families that will ostracize you based on their own decisions.

You keep talking about dissidents. I still remember Obama and his Arab spring and how thousands died because of him. The west like to implant people to create internal conflicts inside countries. It's not going to work in the Gulf countries as all the citizens know how the Americans thrive on instigating conflict. That journalist just wanted to create anarchy. I still remember the terrorist attacks at my American school and other cities in Saudi Arabia during 2004 - 2005. I trust the police and government to eradicate all the extremist and outside threats to the country and keep everyone safe. They've basically cleaned out all the extremism in these past 20 years from the country. The Americans also enjoyed keeping the Saudis and Iranians fighting until the Chinese stepped in and created peace between these two countries.

Americans need to worry about their own backyard with their crap healthcare, poverty, homelessness, illegals, gun violence etc. Saudi Arabia isn't perfect, but Saudi citizens have to pay no income taxes, get free universal healthcare, free education, free university education, all government paid scholarships for universities abroad (tuition, travel & living), first priority in all jobs, social security support for low income citizens, interest free mortgages, etc. Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries. All illegals arrested and deported every month, low crime rates, no African/Asian Refugee illegal drunk junkies roaming the streets (like Europe/America), no homeless tents, no gun violence etc.

The Gulf countries along with Japan, South Korea, Singapore and China know how to keep their countries safe, clean and well. Look at Europe & Scandinavia now with all the illegals running around.

I would rather have self expression than draconian laws. All Western European countries are as safe as they need to be.

Your country, at least to the extent you seem to claim it as such, only started letting its women drive in 2018. As recently as 2011 there was no law prohibiting violence against women. So that's one way of keeping the crime rate low, I guess.

If someone were paying you to defend the Saudi state in online forums, you would probably go to the trouble of giving your posts at least a tiny bit of nuance.

No ones paying me anything. I've lived there for almost 3 decades there and travelled around the world too including western countries. I know how the country has transitioned in these last 30 years from the clutches of religious extremists and into a more comfortable country for its young generation of citizens. Saudi Arabia has always been a traditional country with Bedouin customs. Before, all families had personal drivers and chauffeurs to help the women travel around. In the last few years, Saudi Arabia has fired millions of foreigners and encouraged more women to get in the work force. Hence, the government decided to let them drive. Companies that hire women in Saudi Arabia get more benefits from the government. Women get all their travel expenses refunded to them by the government for the first few years. There are so many universities and programs for universities for women. Regarding the crime rate, yes it's low compared to western countries. Crime does occur both in families and around the country, but the government helps takes care of all these issues. The streets are still safer in the Gulf countries than compared to western countries. You won't find african/asian junkies, drunks, muggers roaming around the streets stealing or threatening people. The government does an amazing job of maintaining order and arresting and deporting thousands of illegals and criminals each month.

You’re wasting your time trying to educate the wilfully ignorant.

> Before, all families had personal drivers and chauffeurs to help the women travel around.

It is frankly incredible how profoundly you are missing the point.

> Crime does occur both in families and around the country, but the government helps takes care of all these issues.

Oh I'm sure they do, and when something goes to court, a man's testimony carries twice the weight of a woman's. Or would you deny and/or sugarcoat that?

> You won't find african/asian junkies, drunks, muggers roaming around the streets stealing or threatening people.

You've described this weird racist fantasy of yours more than once now. Do you think that's what the world outside your country is like? That's really sad if so.

You are making the mistake of assuming most people share your values, which based solely on this thread seem to be authoritarian, nativist and male-supremacist.

> Plus Saudi Arabia long with the other Gulf countries like UAE & Qatar are some of the safest countries.

Do legal immigrants get to keep their passports?

Yes, all foreign workers get to keep their passports while working there. There were issues 20 years ago with certain companies and sponsors keeping the passports of their employees. It's always been illegal to do that and doesn't happen. The foreign worker comes on their temporary work visa and should leave before their work visa expires. Thousands of foreign skilled engineers, doctors, nurses, accountants, scientists, teachers etc. work in Saudi Arabia. Everyone keeps their passports and it's the company that hires them and renews their visa yearly if they want to keep them in their employment.

Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that. People shouldn't get so spun up about it. If those people came here they'd probably just recreate most of the things they do there.

> Foreign states are often the way they are because their population prefers that.

1. That does not make it ethical. There was a time when the majority of people in the US thought it right to treat black people as inferior. Did that make it right?

2. This stuff is at its worst in counties where the population has no chance to express their preference.

3. How do you know what people's preferences are in "foreign states"? Did you go there and ask a representative sample of people after convincing them they could trust you enough to tell you their real views?

Its amazing how people's expressed preferences match their governments if they will be chucked in jail or murdered if they disagree, and their access to information is limited to what the government things they should know.

I'm really not convinced representation changes as much as people think it does.

That's a weird way of looking at it. You do know populations get manipulated no? Yes, even the west

Where exactly do you think "here" is?

I don't think they hide it at all... I think we just don't see governments in the West with the same eyes, sort of like the same effect that happens when watching Vic Mackey or Tony Soprano, and rooting for them fully knowing how morally depleted they are as humans.

This is moral absolutist thinking. Either you're 100% good or 100% evil and there is nothing in between.

Under that thinking, of course, everyone (except, of course, the speaker and friends) is evil and can be accused and held responsible, for their "moral failings".

Oh and you ESPECIALLY don't get to defend anyone with practical arguments, for example, that it is a lot harder for a government that does not have tons and tons of (to them) free natural resources money, like Saudi Arabia (they don't even extract it themselves) to avoid moral problems, and problems in general than it is for, say America. That a country that has to do things itself, just to make a random example, defend it's shores against drugs (and shoot at people who try to ...) has to make a lot of moral compromises (like, perhaps, shooting at criminals trying to flee in a boat) that Saudi Arabia doesn't have to make.

Many countries, like Saudi Arabia, always get a free pass, because "you can't expect them to adhere to ..." when in fact it would be SO much easier for them to have a perfect human rights record, no poverty, extremely liberal societies, ... than it is for the US (because incomes in Saudi Arabia largely does not derive from having Saudi Arabians work, so there's no need to force them to. America shoots at people so Saudi Arabia can export it's oil, ...)

The fact is most non-Western governments (like Saudi Arabia, but they're middle of the boat at best in evilness) don't have the interests of people in mind at all. Regardless if "people" means Saudi Arabian people, people who live in Saudi Arabia including foreignors, or women, or children for that matter. AT BEST, they are like Western companies, at worst ... you can imagine. That a government with the financial means of Saudi Arabia fails here should be 10x worse than similar failings on, for example the US's part (but same for, say, Denmark). But the root cause is simple: the Saudi government is not there to benefit the people there, it benefits itself only.

In other words: these dictatorships are MUCH worse and have MUCH more serious moral failings than the US.

Lol Saudi Arabia is for Saudi citizens. All foreigners are on temporary 3/6/12 month work visas that are renewed each year. We don't give citizenships to foreigners. We don't need and don't want permanent immigration from foreigners in the country. Look at how Japan and South Korea are thriving. And we certainly don't need advice about human rights from genocide supporting western countries. The same America that has given Israel $30 billion in the last few years to flatten Palestine and kill almost a 100,000 people. You keep talking about dissidents. The government keeps the country safe from terrorism, gun violence, criminals, religious extremists etc. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf countries are some of the safest places to live along with Japan, Singapore and South Korea. No one can cares about Western comments on dissidents. Saudi Arabia is still very tribal and family oriented. Saudi Aramco is 98% Saudi Citizens and we extract all the oil ourselves. The Americans left long ago. Focus on your own backyard with your crap healthcare, poverty, homelessness, racial violence, gun violence, etc. There's no Saudi citizen living on the streets. Every single Saudi citizen have to pay no income taxes and gets free healthcare, free education, free university education, free scholarships abroad (tuition, travel, housing, person expenses covered), interest free mortgages, first priority in all jobs, and so many other benefits. The richest country in the world (America) spent trillions of dollars in wars across the Atlantic but has thousands of its citizens homeless on the streets.

Saudi Arabia has 20 million Saudi citizens and they're the only priority and future of the country that has surpassed a GDP of $1 trillion.

Bla bla, human right violations, treating laborers as slaves and second hand people, killing political dissidents and throwing billions of oil dollars to whitewash the country's image.

Whatabouting the US doesn't mean Saudi Arabia's human rights violations suddenly vanish in thin air.

Saud Arabia's first priority is just for Saudi citizens only. No laborer is a slave or forced at gunpoint to come work in our country. They pay themselves thousands of dollars in their foreign countries to come work in Saudi Arabia. Nobody forces them. Their work visa is either only for 3 months or 6 months or 12 months. Then, they need to leave once the visa has expired. No one is forced to work in the country as a slave. You can choose to stay living in your own country. Lol political dissidents are turd implants from the Western countries designed to instigate anarchy in the country. It's never going to work anymore because the Gulf citizens themselves know how pathetic the Americans and the west are nowadays. Stop & STF trying to teach about human rights. The US and Europeans are responsible for the genocide of 100,000 in Palestine right now along with the millions in Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, Vietnam, and so many more. No one needs to whitewash anything. We are spending trillions for our country and the future of our citizens. All the big multi billion projects provide millions of jobs for Saudi citizens and foreigners. And they will continue to provide jobs and revenue for the country for generations to come. The US and the West isn't the bastion of amazing human rights after its support and financing of the current genocide in Palestine.

Saudi citizens are doing just fine and are being greatly supported and have a bright future with the Vision 2030 work happening so far. You worry about your shitty healthcare, gun violence, homelessness, high income taxes, crappy infrastructure, illegal drunks & junkies roaming the streets and other stuff. No one gives a crap about your lame accusations of human rights. You've historically been the biggest mass murders and genocides from killing off the natives in North America and Aborigines in Australia and the recent wars in the middle east. No one gives a crap about some fat old attention whore journalist here anymore. 70% of the Saudi citizen population is under 35 years old and we support the government to keeps the country and us safe from all outside terrorists and other threats.

> You've historically been the biggest mass murders and genocides from killing off the natives in North America and Aborigines in Australia and the recent wars in the middle east.

Absolutely true. And also responsible for the crusades, for the colonization of Africa, Australia and America, and the untold suffering of millions of non Europeans. Europeans also started both the world wars. Nobody is denying that. We know more about human rights violations than anyone else. Thats why we are calling out Saudi Arabia's, the same way I call Israel's genocide upon the Palestinian people.

> No one gives a crap about some fat old attention whore journalist here anymore.

Any normal human with a bit of empathy would decry a dictator killing a journalist and dismembering him like a coward. Also, wherever there a re human rights violations like in Israel, USA and Saudi Arabia, it's our moral duty to investigate further and dethrone the evildoers.

> Lol political dissidents are turd implants from the Western countries designed to instigate anarchy in the country

Ah, the old "everyone who disagrees with the government" is a foreign agent, let's detain them and maybe chop them to pieces. Putin did the same minus the chopping part. Trump is doing the same and trying to bring back Guantanamo. MBS just added the slice and dice for an extra flair.

> Saudi citizen population is under 35 years old and we support the government to keeps the country and us safe from all outside terrorists and other threats.

And whoever doesn't support the government, gets chopped to pieces?

I keep finding this baffling. An arab muslim criticizing OTHERS for practicing slavery? And a Saudi at that. WTF. I mean how hypocritical can you get?

> You've historically been the biggest mass murders and genocides from killing off the natives in North America and Aborigines in Australia and the recent wars in the middle east

Really? Who colonized the middle east, Asia and Africa? Look it up, the Roman Empire did, somewhat, and the actual colonizing (meaning conquering, taking free people and turning them into slaves, usually by mass-murder) was done by the successive Caliphates. Have you somehow missed the many paintings made by the slave trade, missed WHAT the slave owners are wearing? The west took over after the last caliph fled islam (the state, not that anyone at the time made any distinction between state and religion at all. And if we're being very honest, not many muslims were sorry to see it end)

The West then proceeded to end slavery and what's left are a bunch of separate states, with some very badly chosen borders, after stealing resources for a couple of decades.

Which state today would have more to do with these Caliphates that did the colonizing and extracting for >1000 years? The western states, the US? Or can you come up with a more responsible party? Perhaps a specific country, claiming to have been the center of islam for said millenium (they're lying, of course. Any time that it actually mattered the center was Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus or Istanbul, never even close to Saudi Arabia. We happen to be in the only incredibly exceptional moment in history Saudi Arabia is not a desert hellhole. That includes the future)

> crappy infrastructure, illegal drunks & junkies roaming the streets and other stuff ...

I once roamed around, by accident in Ryadh, by getting lost. Don't tell me you have any trouble finding the poorer neighborhoods, drunks and junkies (yes not on the streets, same reason you don't find drunks on the streets in Sydney during summer either) ... and, let's be honest, slaves. It is very much NOT the case that everyone has airco in Saudi Arabia.

And I keep hearing about stuff I haven't seen, like the "divorce prisons" of Saudi Arabia. Also, Saudi Arabia has debtor's prisons. Very progressive you people are.

> after its support and financing of the current genocide in Palestine

"The west" isn't supporting that, with some exceptions (Saudi Arabia IS, by the way). Second, Saudi Arabia has genocided more Jews in Saudi Arabia than the ENTIRE Israel-Palestine conflict made in it's >100 years of on-off fighting on both sides. By the way, a genocide, far bigger than the Israel-Palestine conflict is what brought in the current rulers and created Saudi Arabia not 100 years ago, do you even know that?

I mean, I know the answer to that. You learn that quickly when you're there. No, Saudis do not know the history of Saudi Arabia, not even a little bit. Saudi men (you don't see the women) know more about the history of perfume brands than their own history.

> Saudi citizens are doing just fine and are being greatly supported and have a bright future with the Vision 2030 work ... No one gives a crap about some fat old attention whore journalist ...

You mean when the current Saudi government had it's embassy staff kill and chop into pieces an American-Saudi dual citizen? Yes, that government is taking real good care of human rights. I really trust them to treat other Saudi citizens well into the future ...

And Vision 2030, which boils down to "tourism will replace oil revenues", is about as realistic as an umbrella manufacturer's plan to branch out into delivering hot soup during hurricanes. Wait, why am I even making a comparison. Let me repeat the vision: "tourism will replace oil revenues". That's also a joke, just so bad it's not even funny. So at least there's that: in 20 or so years when oil demand has dried up, Saudi Arabia will once again be the desert hellhole it was for most of it's existence. Maybe more like 10 years, or even less, because frankly I doubt oil demand will survive the next recession in the west, whenever that is.

tell us more about the journalists chopped up to pieces in the finish embassay by the finish government.

In the UK a MI5 worker was found in a holdall,which was in the bath and padlocked.

https://metro.co.uk/2024/02/08/ex-mi5-officer-this-verdict-s...

There was this chap called Julian Assange who was framed by the Swedish government and then involuntarily incarcerated in an embassy in London. Close enough?

The fact that the West persecuted Assange for exposing their crimes against humanity doesn't give right to Saudi Arabia to kill its journalists with impunity either. Surely crimes against humanity and violating human rights can be done by multiple governments, as Netanyahu's genocide against the Palestinians can coexist at the same time as MBS's chopping of journalists and illegal incarcerations.

Again with the relativistic moral blah blah.

Who are you to impose your moral system on any one else?

Why is it so hard for westerners to mind their own business?

Oh really? He was chopped up to pieces by the Swedish govt? Or did he hide in an embassy to avoid a rape investigation (of course you believe women just lie about rape)?

Western countries support Israel in the genocide they do on Palestine, and violently quash protests against climate change or said genocide in Palestine. But at the same time we need to call out all evil, including the one happening in Saudi Arabia.

Western governments still allow you to post comments criticizing these things. But we’re on the knife edge of authoritarianism. A few more “everyone is equally bad” elections and that will be gone too.

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