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Comment by gruez | Hacker News Reader

>Feel free to look at dividend yields, but I can pretty much guarantee that it has not halfed in the period the stock market doubled. Most likely it stayed relatively flat, somewhere between 1.5% and 2%.

Eyeballing this chart it looks like it dropped around a third since the pandemic.

https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/spx-div-yld....

https://ycharts.com/indicators/sp_500_dividend_yield

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If yields stay the same actual dividends still grow in a rising market. Of course dividends aren’t a good representation of increased wealth. Stock price + dividends is. Companies generate profit which gets added to the balance sheet or paid out as dividends. It’s basically two ways of accounting for the same income (with some minor differences like tax implications).

(First, I apologise that this message must be hasty, I must do life stuff).

I really feel like your first graph proves my point? OK, at times it goes up, at times it goes down. But since 2002 the dividend is the same, but the S&P 500 is 7x. So the lazy capitalist puting in 10 million there in 2002 got 132k in yearly 'income' then, now he gets 925k yearly.

You wanna figure out how much average salary increased the same period? I am willing to bet it's closer to 2 than 7.

And that shows who gets the fruit of our increased productivity. Owners.

I fully agree. Additionally, stock price is driven also by expectations of further growth, which in order to keep happening, something's gotta give so it must chip away at quality of the final product too (cheaper materials, cheaper manufacturing, etc) with a consequent enshittification. My parents, who live in Italy, could afford a stone house from the 1800s in their thirties. I live in Canada and everything's made of wood and snot and and costs a fortune.

In most places, residential real estate prices are driven mainly by land values rather than construction quality. But if you want to live in Italy they're literally giving away free houses.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/19/travel/italian-village-ollola...

>I fully agree. Additionally, stock price is driven also by expectations of further growth, which in order to keep happening, something's gotta give so it must chip away at quality of the final product too (cheaper materials, cheaper manufacturing, etc) with a consequent enshittification.

???

You're omitting some steps here. While "enshittification" probably happens to some extent, it's unhinged to suggest that's the only explanation for growth, as opposed to more mundane explanations like "better technology".

>My parents, who live in Italy, could afford a stone house from the 1800s in their thirties. I live in Canada and everything's made of wood and snot and and costs a fortune.

Seems like a stretch to blame this on "enshittification" when North American houses have been made of wood for centuries.

I didn’t mean it’s the only explanation, but it sure is a knob that companies use to tune “growth” (or fake growth, for that matter), among other things like better technology.

Just for fun, watch a movie from the 30s, 40s, 50s, etc., and take a look at the interiors of houses.

We've got a lot better today, and a lot more of it.

Even watch an episode of Dynasty (about rich people). Look at the crappy TV in the corner. I remember taking my last CRT TV to the recycler. I was sure glad to be rid of it.

Notice that I am not saying that labour is not getting more purchasing power, just that owners is getting more quicker. Luckily our increase in productivity is high enough that both can get more in absolute terms, although owners gets a larger part of the growing cake.

You realize you're an enormously privileged, wealthy individual telling other people that don't have your wealth and privilege how they should feel the same as you? You don't even say "in my experience" you just condescend to others that they should recognize how great the world is for the 0.1%, completely unaware that it isn't great for people that can't afford food and housing. Nobody gives a shit about their TV when they're hungry on the street.

I was born into a lower middle class family with several siblings. My dad skirted bankruptcy. My first car literally came from a junkyard in pieces, bought with money I earned from my paper route. Hardly 0.1%.

(I didn't know how bad things were for him until I went through his papers after he died.)

I began investing with my first real job, with another crappy car I repaired with junkyard parts.

A good friend of mine grew up in a family that qualified for welfare but wouldn't accept it. He didn't get past high school. He managed to make himself $10m before his tragic death. Yes, the US is the land of opportunity. Other countries can emulate it if they want to.

A couple years ago, I booked an Uber ride. The driver was a refugee from Afghanistan. He arrived in the US with nothing but his skin. Within a few months he had a thriving business, driving the Uber in whatever extra time he had left. It was fun talking to him - he was hella ambitious!

Setting aside everything else I'd normally say, I do respect that you make an earnest attempt to engage with almost anyone.

Thank you for the kinds words, I appreciate them.

Most companies moved to stock buybacks instead of dividends for tax reasons.

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