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Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

> In case of (2) aren't immigration laws there for a reason

Sure, everything ultimately exist for some reason, but that doesn't mean everyone agrees with the reasoning :)

I don't know what the answer is (also an outsider), but I think there is a third possibility of people just disagreeing with the move of "Lets forcible check every single potentially illegal immigrant, so we can get rid of the illegal ones" from a purely humanitarian perspective, regardless if ICE might be abusing their power or if they're only removing illegal immigrants.

Edit: I'm wondering if positing two options like that is actually engagement bait of sorts, already we have two confident commentators saying "It's N of course" where N is both 1 and 2, and I myself fell into the trap of thinking of the third missing one :)

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> I think there is a third possibility of people just disagreeing with the move of "Lets forcible check every single potentially illegal immigrant, so we can get rid of the illegal ones" from a purely humanitarian perspective, regardless if ICE might be abusing their power or if they're only removing illegal immigrants.

Okay, so bear with me, what does "forcibly" entail here? I'm an immigrant too, I also get "forcibly" (as in: I can't refuse) checked whether I'm legal or not based on how I look, which essentially boils down to spending a minute of my time taking my immigrant card (which shows that I'm legal) out of my wallet, showing it to the police officer (or whatever other government official is asking), and then going my way. This is totally not a problem. Doesn't the US have a way for immigrants to easily and unambiguously identify themselves as legal immigrants?

> I'm an immigrant too, I also get "forcibly" (as in: I can't refuse) checked whether I'm legal or not based on how I look, which essentially boils down to spending a minute of my time taking my immigrant card (which shows that I'm legal) out of my wallet, showing it to the police officer (or whatever other government official is asking), and then going my way.

Does that officer have a badge number? Do they wear a uniform? Are they accountable to the law and the courts in some fashion? Do they actually look at and honor your paperwork? Are there any consequences if they abuse their power, or ignore regulations? Can they send you to a foreign prison without holding any kind of trial, and in direct disobedience to a court order?

There's a key difference between "police", who are identifiable and answerable to the law, and "secret police" with masks and unmarked vans and a tendancy to ignore the courts.

> Doesn't the US have a way for immigrants to easily and unambiguously identify themselves as legal immigrants?

Re: ways to easily identify yourself with documents on you: this isn't always true, especially if you're stuck waiting for the American immigration bureaucracy to get you to nice and neat documents (e.g. the immigration agency, which is between months and years [0], and immigration courts, which is years if you're waiting on an asylum case [1]).

For example, green cards are (mostly) eligible for renewal 90 days before their expiry – but renewals take longer than that; so you get a paper letter that extends your expired green card for 3 extra years. [2] Does carrying around a paper letter count as easy, especially if you're stopped at a dragnet, or you're detained and get separated from your belongings while things are "verified"? I don't think so.

[0] https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/historic-pt

[1] https://tracreports.org/whatsnew/email.250320.html#:~:text=(...

[2] https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/2024-10/LPR%20Extent...

'Forcibly' entails a bunch of guys jumping out of a van to kidnap brown people from a Home Depot parking lot because they're brown (https://lamag.com/news/new-lawsuit-says-ice-agents-are-racia...).

That might be OK wherever you are from. Our forefathers fought a war in part to stop warrantless checks of random people on the street for their papers. It goes against the very document that even authorizes our government in the first place.

> Our forefathers fought a war in part to stop warrantless checks of random people on the street for their papers.

Source?

Also, the supreme court has ruled that asking for ID at stops is constitutional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_Distr...

There has to be articulable individualized suspicion of a specific crime to stop someone and ID them, you can randomly do it to people on the street even if they look brown or something.

>asking for ID

The same supreme court ruling you named stated the reason why they could even demand ID was because there was no expectation it would implicate them in a crime. Demanding immigration papers in an immigration investigation would reasonably be asking someone to incriminate themselves if not having them is an element of that crime (for the same reason, if a minor is stopped for say having booze, generally they are not required to give DOB even if the stop-and-ID statute requires it).

The bit you are interested in googling is "general warrants" as one of the things colonists were quite angry about.

> I also get "forcibly" (as in: I can't refuse) checked whether I'm legal or not based on how I look, which essentially boils down to spending a minute of my time taking my immigrant card (which shows that I'm legal) out of my wallet, showing it to the police officer (or whatever other government official is asking), and then going my way. This is totally not a problem.

Sounds like you have a mild case of Stockholm syndrome, if you happily accept that you get more attention from law enforcement due to your physical traits.

I disagree. I have a case of being respectful to the country I'm a guest in and not being a primadonna about it. I'm required by law to always carry my ID with me and to show it to government officials when asked, and they are entitled by law to be able to check my papers for whatever reason. I look like a foreigner therefore they check whether I'm a legal foreigner; the other alternatives are either 1) they don't check anyone at all (so the immigration laws aren't enforced), or 2) they check everyone regardless of how they look (so they annoy 99% of the population). I don't enjoy having my papers checked, but that's the law; I can either accept it, or leave, and being "but muh rights!" about it isn't helping anyone (especially since those people are just doing their job and aren't out to "get me" in any malicious way; don't know, maybe this is different in the US, but here it certainly isn't the case).

First off, nobody should have to keep papers on them to prevent them from one day suddenly ending up at CECOT because they didn't have them on their person when they went to get groceries. Insane to me people think that's a normal way to live.

Second, it doesn't matter if you show valid right to live in the US. They'll still lock you up and attempt to send you to an overseas prison camp and then argue they or the courts have no jurisdiction to return or release you.

"Papers please"

You're being naive. ICE has had _zero_ problems taking away legal immigrants. Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the most notorious case was an illegal immigrant, granted a right to stay and work by a judge, and spent months in a prison. Forgetting your papers at home (having an ID on you is not a legal requirement. Nor is having an ID in the US, which is another set of problems. Nor is actually getting any legal immigration documents, since the systems are setup to make your life as miserable as possible)

ICE does not behave like a well mannered cop that will check your papers and let you go. They're an unregulated fascist militia that will blow up your door while your children are sleeping because you stopped their car two days ago, and will take you away simply because you're being too brown for their liking today.

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