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Comment by kulahan | Hacker News Reader

These America bad comments are so lame.

Pretty much every one of these is a boring example. Abortion access is a debatable topic, most people who want public transit want it so they can get OTHER people off the road, lots of major cities have both public transit and walkability, many states and cities have significantly higher minimum wages, etc.

None of these are things most Americans are absolutely clamoring for - you just want to live in Europe without moving there.

Well, maybe the concept of free healthcare.

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This is not a "America is Bad" debate, it's a "There are things America is bad at which we should get better at".

> Abortion access is a debatable topic

It's a simple debate though, one we can speedrun:

Objections to abortion access are rooted in religious concerns.

The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state.

Birth control of all sorts are the best method of reducing generational poverty.

It is also medically necessary in some cases to save the life of the mother, especially in the case of a non-viable fetus.

QED: If you don't like abortion, don't get one. It has multiple societal benefits.

It's so easy to take this logic and apply it elsewhere. For the simplest example:

Desire for every human to be viewed as equal is rooted in religious concerns (see: divine rites of succession).

The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state.

Therefore, we should not allow people to view each other as equals.

> Objections to abortion access are rooted in religious concerns.

This is simply false. You don't have to be religious to be against killing babies. Many non-religious people find it barbaric.

According to Pew, 86% of people with no religious affiliation think it should be legal.

Why? Because treating a fertilized egg or a fetus as the same thing as a baby is rooted in religion. 13% is few not many.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...

> This is simply true.

FTFY

When exactly does a fetus become a baby? At the point of birth? There is no easy way out of this dilemma.

Opinion polls are very easy to game by phrasing questions differently. Ask people at what number of weeks is it ok to crush a growing baby (fetus) into pieces and vacuum it out, and you will get a wildly different percentage.

> When exactly does a fetus become a baby? At the point of birth? There is no easy way out of this dilemma.

The easy way is the one already taken: by putting more restrictions the closer you get to the time of birth, and not at all addressing the question of when it counts as a baby. The easy way is not making that question the focus, because it inevitably leads to a discussion of "when does the soul inhabit the body" - a religious argument.

Thank you for proving my point.

There is no religious argument here. Either it's a baby or it's not. Either you're killing another human being or you're not. You don't need to believe in "souls" to find this type of killing abhorrent.

Spare me the smug bullshit.

Dig up.

So the USA is not behind on maternal mortality rate [1], minimum wages [2], time off [3], walkable cities [4] and public transport?

These things are quite apparent as a visitor: the "greatest city on earth", NYC, has a comically dirty and outdated metro system, and walking from a hotel to the nearest supermarket is basically impossible in most large cities - which are already the most walkable places.

[1] https://tcf.org/content/commentary/worsening-u-s-maternal-he...

[2] https://hellopebl.com/resources/blog/minimum-wage-by-country...

[3] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/19/why-us-vacation-policies-are...

[4] https://www.weforum.org/stories/2023/03/why-walkable-urban-a...

Where do you think I said the US isn't behind on those things? Like just do me a favor and point that out specifically, with a quote.

Well, I'm confused then. You said 'every one of these is a boring example' as if they don't matter, when they have massive impact on quality of life especially for the least privileged.

I said they're boring because they're overused. The only complaints anyone ever comes up with is that America isn't European enough. I'd be fascinated by a discussion of how we can solve America's problems without mentioning other nations or cultures we should simply emulate instead.

Who wants to go walk around a city when you have a bunch of troops and ice villains doing horrific stuff to people? We can't even go a week without a mass shooting, forcing women to give birth, taxing people that make the least. What are you sticking up for?

The other stuff. Is this a serious question? You can't think of ONE good thing about the US? What is with this brainrot?

I think the negative we're seeing right now outweighs the positive. It's not brain rot when you can't dispute a single point. You may be enjoying the Biff Tannen timeline, many are not.

Literally nothing here gives even an inkling of the idea that I “can’t refute” these unbearably basic complaints; super weird assumption tbh

>Well, maybe the concept of free healthcare.

Forget free healthcare, it's about affordable healthcare. For the outcomes we get, the US has extremely expensive healthcare. Many, many other countries have better outcomes for way less money.

Free healthcare is a big deal.

Get sick, can't keep up at work so you get fired, can't afford treatment because healthcare insurance is tied to employment.

You will never get well, you get evicted. Then you can decay on the streets if not jail.

Compared to Europe.

Get sick. Have real labor protections so you won't get fired, and generous benefits to keep you afloat. Get free healthcare, get well.

Sip fine wine while reading horror stories about the US healthcare system.

America is basically a giant casino. A small percentage of gamblers win, but even they are a bad roll of the dice away from destitution.

What is this weird Europe fetishization? I refuse to believe you honestly think life over there is all wine-sips-and-healthcare, unless you truly just know nothing about the continent?

Why do you think it is fetishization? You can quite literally sip a five euro wine while on sick leave (if your illness allows!), knowing that your finances and job are not at risk, for as long as your recovery takes. There is no hyperbole there, it's the entire point of labour protections.

Meanwhile, as far as I understand, laws only mandate unpaid leave for a limited time, and only for very serious conditions in the US.

Labor protections in America is a joke.

A friend had a rough pregnancy, got fired. You can try and sue but it's expensive/stressful and you'll probably lose.

Mom and the kid are both fine years later.

Had a co worker who only took a single day off for his daughters birth as the company didn't offer any PAID family leave.

Because it's no different than me saying something completely useless like:

europe: live in government row-houses, watch national economy implode, drink warm beer

america: have some of the most affordable housing in the world (compared with income), watch national economy grow, sip three-buck-chuck

No hyperbole!!! therefore it's just a normal observation and not fetishization!

America has 3rd world standards of healthcare, for the simple fact that something like 1 in 3 people regularly can't afford treatment.

All while still having high taxes.

Crime is also drastically higher in the US. I've been to Europe and Asia. Serious crime is a fraction of what it is here.

Plus you don't need a car in most big cities.

But I guess America has more billionaires ( for now anyway).

Asia and Europe are full of intolerant ethnostates that barely get along with themselves, let alone others. It’s pretty easy to have a modicum of success when everyone is basically identical in looks and attitude.

Also, who gives a shit if you need a car or not? What is this lol

Even if I lived in Japan, I’d still have a car. You DO realize people outside of the internet occasionally enjoy cars, yeah?

And America will probably have more billionaires for ages. Hardly anyone gets that rich in Europe, and in China, all billionaires exist at the pleasure of the government and are disappeared constantly. Outside of Singapore (where you go to jail for spitting out gum), there are hardly any.

But yeah, the “for now” was definitely a cool mic drop…

Ok, so America is great for billionaires.

The vast majority of us are a bad year away from sleeping on the streets. Just decoupling healthcare from employment would be amazing.

It happens all the time. Any serious illness will stop you from working. You then have no way to pay for treatment, and then your stuck.

Not to mention Europe is much safer by several orders of magnitude. Both the UK and France are very diverse and safe.

Cars are expensive. Try affording healthcare insurance, a car, car insurance and out of pocket medical expenses on an average income. People just skip things, drive around without insurance and ignore easily treatable illnesses.

Eventually it all falls apart.

It's a horrible system for almost everyone, but billionaires.

Like I said, America is a casino. It's fun when your winning, but very few come out ahead.

You know, I can cut a lot of nonsense comments we'll need to work through by just asking this:

Which nation are you referring to? Broke Greece? Unemployed Spain? Walled-off Britain? No-government France? Dictator-run Turkey? Dictator-run Russia? Dictator-run Belarus? Economically-stagnated Germany? Nervous-of-invasion nordic states? Like, where is this utopia?

>No-government France

Ironic you bring this up as government workers are expected to work without pay during the shutdown.

France has a fraction of the crime of the US. They have plenty of immigrants.

Healthcare outcomes are significantly better.

Greece, while having less billionaires, has a significantly longer life expectancy than the US.

I guess if you're a billionaire America offers lower taxes. For everyone else it's a raw deal. The main issue is if you're poor life is hell, and it's very easy to fall off.

No country is perfect, but our healthcare system alone puts us below most developed countries.

As a bonus even if you leave the US you're still expected to pay taxes. Aside from Eritrea, no one other country does this.

    > most people who want public transit want it so they can get OTHER people off the road

Such a bad take. I would guess you've never been to Japan, Taiwan, any country with a fast, well-functioning public transit system. It's so convenient to not have to drive everywhere and have dependable transit options. Not to mention for seniors and even children (yes; kids in Asia board transit by themselves all the time).

What does this have to do with what people believe at all? You're not arguing with me, because I don't have that point of view.

So you're pulling positions out of thin air? Got it.

No, studies have shown this. I'm obviously just not referring to my own personal opinion. When did YCom commenters lose all rational thought?

    > ...studies have shown this...When did YCom commenters lose all rational thought

Then posts 0 studies to back the position...

You’re welcome to say you cannot use searches well and ask me for one, rather than pretending it’s a gotcha to never have been given something you never asked for.

Again, brain rot. I’m outta here - people line you are ruining this site.

If you claim the Earth is flat, isn't it upon you to back your claims?

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