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Comment by costcopizza | Hacker News Reader

I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

There are multiple other factors for the relatively low adoption of EVs compared to China.

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Automobile buyers who buy American or European cars are more likely to be auto enthusiasts.

Then there's the utility / practical / recreational crowd who goes for SUVs and pickup trucks.

Those whose primary aim is utility are already in (non-EU) foreign markets or used. Those are invisible to new-car US/EU sales.

It's a classic Innovators Dilemma dynamic (Clayton Christensen), where chasing higher-end market niches torpedoes development of disruptive tech within the same firm.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma>

In the US there isn't much choice. There are a few Japanese and Korean cars - but even those brands put effort into appealing to auto enthusiasts.

Remember, if you need a widget that you don't otherwise care about knowing someone who does care about them recommends something is a very important factor in your decision. The realistic difference between a car/suv of similar size between GM, Toyota, or VW (random choice of brands but covering the 3 geographical regions) is minimal: the non-enthusiast will be happy in any of them.

Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and Kia all appeal primarily to the strictly-utilitarian car owner, with the Accord and Civic (Honda) and Corolla and Camry (Toyota) being classically "boring" but highly-practical, dependable, and efficient vehicles. There are even more pragmatic offerings in the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Hyundai Accent, and Kia Rio. These are small, arguably ugly, but very versatile options.

There's simply nothing comparable currently produced by an American marque, though there were the Chevy Spark (Korean-built) and Ford Fiesta (Spain), both have been discontinued.

The mean, median and modal auto buyer in north america is buying a blob shaped "car" that's marketed as a "crossover" and officially categorized as an "SUV" for compliance reasons. Maybe it's an ICE, maybe it's a hybrid, some are even electric. 99.9% of buyers choose based on fit for their intended usage pattern. And because the automakers are competing for these hordes of buyers in this segment, these cars are very competitive in terms of bang for buck.

The types of buyers who chose their form factor or source of motive power for their vehicle based on image or virtue points are a rounding error.

I own 2 cars, both Porsche. Mine is a 15 year old Boxster S. The wife has a brand new Macan 4S EV. It is a brilliant car. 280mi/450km @ 80% charge and no issues with the cold. It was 27F/-3.5C this morning.

I will never buy a gas car again. I plan to keep my Boxster until I can buy an EV version.

> I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

Only like 1-2% of new cars are manual transmission here. A lot of the enthusiast market complains that everything is an automatic these days, even high end sports cars.

I like manual transmissions but I think DCTs are an improvement for the average car. They seem to have a lot less "hunting" than the typical torque-converter automatic and good precision for the driving conditions. It is easy to put them into a manual-select mode. And, of course, they don't seem to stall.

The manual transmission crowd cannot be convinced. Even when you show them the performance advantages etc. They just want 'fun' and 'engaging', however they define that.

I've driven both. I don't know how to define what I feel, but the true clutch is more "fun and engaging". I still went with a EV because it is the right choice, but I want the ICE with manual and if money was limitless I'd have a collection (plus a personal mechanic to keep them all running)

You can get a ioniq 5N which simulates appropriately ICE noises, gear switching when you want it, and drive silently when you want it

For me, there is the sense that the transmission is doing a precise and correct job, which reflects my intent. That causes the feeling of fun that comes from anything that works well.

On YouTube there are videos of machines doing precise jobs well, which people call "satisfying to watch". Those are relevant to the discussion, I feel.

I have only ever owned cars with manual transmissions for my personal vehicles.

I would 100% get a vehicle without a manual for my next car if it’s an improvement over a manual. I’ve driven a handful of Priuses. I would definitely own one. I would definitely own an EV.

I have no desire to own an ICE-only vehicle with a CVT, automated manual, or conventional automatic. They add complexity and opaque failure modes. Last year I lost reverse in our plow truck (an automatic). Totally undiagnosable for me, nevermind fixable. Had a new used transmission put it, and it started bogging and lurching from a stop and up hills. Can’t work around it, can’t fix it. Sold the truck for $300 to someone who’s going to part it out (the engine wasn’t great either) and moved the plow onto a new used truck.

We’re not all stuck in the past. Some of us do understand the system well enough to be picky about believing something is an improvement.

Another example: CFL lightbulbs flat-out sucked. Avoided them as best as I could. Bought CREE LED bulbs at $20 apiece as soon as they came out at Home Depot.

Manual transmission people are like the audiophiles of cars. Other than some sports cars, nobody cares.

Manual transmissions have certain advantages, particularly in their home next to an ICE. They never 'hunt' for gears; if you want that, you have to hunt. They can be push started if the battery is dead.

Manuals are really good in bumper-to-bumper traffic: often the second gear has an incredible range from slow crawling to 40 km/h. You keep the clutch completely engaged and just work the gas pedal. (The odd time when things look like they are coming to a complete stop, you hit the clutch to keep the engine from stalling. But if the traffic moves again while you are still rolling, then you just re-engage in second gear.

You can do a similar thing in automatics with their 1 or 2 gears, but it doesn't work quite as nicely as that second gear in a typical manual.

Manual transmissions are tougher against heavy loads (than torque converter automatics). If you have to tow a heavily loaded trailer, manual is better. The clutch is fully engaged and so very little energy is lost in the transmissions. Automatic transmissions can heat up under load and can overheat.

A lot of this is not relevant when we are talking electric vehicles, of course.

But in an ICE car, there are good reasons to prefer a manual transmission, even if you're not a sporty driving enthusiast.

I like manual transmissions; they do what you tell them, and do it quickly. They are fun to drive.

They are also on their way out, together with the internal combustion engine. It's possible to work them into electric cars, but they don't make much sense there.

The deal breaker for me isn't the lack of a manual transmission, but all the screens and software updates, and barriers to repair.

Can we not have an electric econobox that focuses on utter simplicity?

Auto enthusiasts no, but cars are definitely not appliances in the US.

Cars are a way people mark their social status - whether they will admit it or not. A big, luxurious SUV with a small mountain of space, the latest tech, etc is not an 'appliance'. It's a luxury people are choosing to buy.

The difference is in priorities. Americans wanted a very different kind of car than China is/was making.

They are in the sense that most of them are buying cars that represent their identity. For example nearly every pick up truck is an "auto enthusiast", because almost none of them are used for their primary purpose more than a few times mes a year.

Many Americans base their identity off that appliance though, buying big trucks to drive around the suburbs and commute in. It needs to go vroom, so no e trucks allowed. I'd say it's more like a form of narcissism than enthusiasm.

Explain to me why I should want an electric car?

Low maintenance costs, cheaper operational cost (depending on electric rates).

Some of them are quite peppy too. My Leaf isn't but it meets the criteria I just gave.

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