Comment by Hamuko | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Hamuko | Hacker News Reader

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Do you work for Google or something?

This has been a major story in Finland. The head of Google's Finnish operations was hiding from the biggest newspaper in Finland (Helsingin Sanomat) for days. This is also not on a "Finnish contractor", since the fuck up was on Tuike Finland, which is Google's data center subsidiary in Finland.

Here's the list of articles that Helsingin Sanomat has written about Google's data center shenanigans:

  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012281667.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012293262.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012304991.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012320374.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012324438.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012324753.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012325168.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012326957.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012327899.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012331009.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012331370.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012333022.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012332605.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012336348.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012341842.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012343047.html
  https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012342968.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012337298.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012349563.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012343936.html
  https://www.hs.fi/alueet/art-2000012352803.html
  https://www.hs.fi/paakirjoitukset/art-2000012351360.html
  https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000012360395.html
  https://www.hs.fi/alueet/art-2000012358967.html

It's possible that there's more and I just failed to find them.

That sounds ridiculous though, no? Look at how much forest the country has. Making it a national news story seems out of proportion.

> That sounds ridiculous though, no? Look at how much forest the country has.

The British isles where once covered in forest, too. Then they decided to build a big fleet. Then came the industrial revolution. Now they're down to some 13% of forest...

Yes, Finland might be one of most forested countries in the world (by percentage of land area) now, but history shows that can change quickly if one is not careful about it. Death of a country's forest by a thousand cuts, if you will :)

To an outsider this might sound like an overreaction, but it has to be taken seriously - keep in mind that Finland is one of Europe's premiere locations for grand scale datacentre buildout. Cool climate, lots of available land, politically stable, easy access to cheap and clean power; many very good reasons to assume that this will not be the last datacentre being built there. So yeah, stories like this concern people.

It seems out of proportion that it's national news when a foreign megacorporation illegally logs woods in order to build a data centre?

They (Tuike Finland, the Google subsidiary, not a contractor) even asked the authorities if they could skip doing the assessment, were not exempted, and they still continued to log.

Again, this is small beans local town scale bureaucratic fumbling. Did the town think that Google was getting into forestry when they approved the sale?

Google (or really it's contractor) failed to get the permit, a permit which would have been approved anyway.

Again, do you work for Google? Because that's the only reason I can think of why you're so boldly saying these things that are just not true. Especially the part where you constantly try to pin this on a contractor.

This is not about a permit. It's about doing an environmental impact assessment. Google's Finnish subsidiary started logging the forest in March. Then right at the end of April, Tuike Finland (Google) asked the national regulators if they could get a case-by-case decision on the need for the environmental impact assessment, wanting to not have to do it for their permits. Then they got an answer on May 22nd, clearly saying that the environmental impact assessment is required. And Google continued logging until August.

This is Google themselves not following the law, asking for exemptions, not getting one, and then continuing to not follow the law.

But please, feel free to post your source if you have contradicting evidence. Here's mine: https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000012304991.html

Everything you said is true.

The issue is the media response vs the scope of the violation. It's a small misstep that happens constantly in construction.

Happens constantly? On what authority do you speak of this? Especially when you had none of the facts of this case right either.

But yeah, sure. Show me how often the YVA is being ignored in Finnish industrial construction. Better yet if you have examples of companies asking the regulators for a case-by-case exemption, failing to get it, and continuing to log.

I don't have anything I can show you....because it doesn't even make the news, going back to my original point

So you have no proof, you have no expertise and you have no credibility because you've already posted tons of misinformation. Yeah, I'm filing this under B for "bullshit".

It is absolutely ridiculous that a permitting mishap over a miniscule piece of land is a major story. It speaks more to the media and political environment than anything else

In my world, ignoring the law isn't "a permitting mishap". Or do you also call speeding "an accelerator mishap"?

Google didn't do the environmental impact assessment the law required. Google asked the regulators if they could get a case-by-case decision to not do it. Regulators shot down Google's idea, emphasising how a clearance as large as the one they planned would specifically require it. And Google continued to log for months after this.

They're still like nine weeks away from submitting their environmental impact assessment by their own statements. For a logging project they started in March.

You can't even put this on ignorance when they engage in correspondence with the regulators and get told specifically about it. And as Helsingin Sanomat put it: they could have found this information easily on Google.

Maybe this is just a cultural thing because yes, speed limits are irrelevant in the US. I do not expect people to follow all the laws all the time. Do you not have jaywalking laws?

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