Comment by cxr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cxr | Hacker News Reader

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You're committing the very sin that the original article fingers as the problem with the webdev culture.

The evidence-free claim here (that with frameworks you end up spending less) is all "vibes"—or, put more charitably, a hunch plus some inductive reasoning. It's not a tested hypothesis.

The crux of your argument* is essentially "a + b > a for some non-zero b", where b represents what you are "paying for your library code". The right side of the relation is supposed to represent using a framework, but this neglects c, the cost paid for not using the Nike method ("Just Do It") when it comes to dealing with things yourself (i.e. the framework cost—which, like b, is never zero).

* as stated at least; it's possible and probable that you really don't mean to say that c simply doesn't exist but that b > c (either by intuition or experience or both) but that's still just a claim—which is the entire basis for the author's criticism: not whether frameworks are or aren't actually more cost-effective, but the greater meta-level concern described here in this comment, in the original piece, and other comments by the author and people like Alex Russell elsewhere describing how resistant the culture is towards the notion of attempting to prove or falsify these kinds of claims (if you can even manage to get people to agree to formulate them in such a way that they can actually be subjected to the scientific method)

> The evidence-free claim here (that with frameworks you end up spending less) is all "vibes"

Is it? Because in my experience, this is flat out wrong and it's very easy to verify, and it is a tested hypothesis.

> The right side of the relation is supposed to represent using a framework, but this neglects c, the cost paid for not using the Nike method

You're committing a fallacy here: You're assuming that not using the method/framework comes free or cheaper. Why would that ever be true? React doesn't do DOM manipulation for funsies, if you foregoe a framework you'll be implementing reactivity, interactivity and performant code yourself. The browser is very barebones in that regard. The framework cost is always lower than rolling your own, and this isn't even the argument people are having. Non-Framework evangelists are arguing performance, never cost.

A framework doesn't come into existence out of thin air. If you choose one, you're working with a community of thousands of developers. I don't have to build my own reactive table, I can use TanStack table. I don't have to build my own playground, I can use stackblitz or storybook to showcase stuff to a client. I don't have to build my own cancellable asynchronous list, I can use a trusted library for that, too. My client doesn't care if I roll my own. They care about effect per hour spent.

> The framework cost is always lower than rolling your own, and this isn't even the argument people are having

First, not using a framework doesn’t mean you have to roll your own (otherwise you’re still using a framework?). Second, this is the claim the parent wants you to substantiate, that not using a framework is always more expensive than using one.

> You're committing a fallacy here: You're assuming that not using the method/framework comes free or cheaper.

No, I'm not. Nowhere in my comment have I made that claim, nor is there any claim that could even be mistaken for trying to argue one way or the other. It's like you lack the ability see words on a page and understand what's actually being discussed in the remarks you're responding to. (This also explains why, when challenged on succumbing to the industry tendency to make all-vibes arguments instead of evidence—directly in the comments of the article that calls this out—your direct response to that is to restate your claims and arguments and avoid providing any evidence. It's always just hunches and attempts at inductive reasoning, all the time.)

Claiming that one approach is cheaper than another is never a fallacy. It is a statement of fact that can be wrong if disqualified with evidence or proven correct.

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