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Comment by realityfactchex | Hacker News Reader

First of all, open the TV and disconnect the wireless radio from the main board, on mine (Samsung) it was just unplugging one cable (AI or Google it). I dislike doing stuff like that, but it was easy in my case, maybe you'll be lucky, too.

Second, never use the "apps" built into the TV.

Next, don't plug Ethernet into the TV. Plug HDMI cables into the TV.

Use a box of your choice on the other end of the HDMI cables. This is now the box that you trust. (Roku? Shield? Blu-ray? MacBook? PC? Linux? Playstation? XBox? Whatever you want.)

The Smart TV itself is now fine. Choose the devices you plug into it to play content. The TV just shows it.

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The thing I'd be worried about when doing this is spending $1000+ on a TV, then realizing it has some sort of pre-downloaded ads that it shows on the main screen ("sign up for your free six months of HBO Max!") or otherwise has a nag prompt that appears to tell you to connect to WiFi. I think that would be basically intolerable.

Been a few years since I had to get a new one, but I booted mine up, switched to the HDMI input for my AppleTV, and never looked back. Just boots straight into the AppleTV input when you use the AppleTV remote to wake it up.

We have to use the actual TV remote to debug some audio issues or disable the motion blur stuff again every once in awhile, but otherwise it might as well just be a display for the AppleTV. I’ve only seen the actual home screen of the TV a handful of times.

I guess it’s probably still spying on us somehow, and it seems like different models make using the AppleTV remote and booting right into the AppleTV harder than others, so your mileage may vary.

You have to be careful with this path. Some manufacturers embed LED's into the bezel and blink them at you (part of the IR sensor for the remote, to prevent you from taping over with electrical tape) if they do not have network.

Others just overlay banners on top of the video.

Caveat emptor.

If its an Android TV, you can use an alternate launcher to avoid home screen ads.

That hasn't been my experience so far.

Oh the horror!

While practical advice its just odd to me there's no major legislation or movement or activism or boycotts about this. We just accept our TV might be silently recording everything we say in our home and the fix is to not plug it into the internet.

Remember this when you vote. A progressive swing is coming, and if we will ever regain privacy rights, it'll be when the next swing hits.

> First of all, open the TV and disconnect the wireless radio from the main board

This. Never trust software switches. See my other reply for what I suggest instead of "streaming boxes" that aren't any better than the TV firmware.

So you think that if the TV doesn't have your Wi-Fi password, it surreptititously turns on Wi-Fi and runs cracking software to obtain it anyway?

I think the more logical concern would be that it would wait until it could find any potential unsecured wifi to use. I live in an apartment building and there a few wifi access points that I can reach from my apartment with no security. Though one of them appears to be an air conditioner??

Say the TV finds such an access point and uses it. It phones home and so now the manufacturer now knows that such and such serial # TV is located in that neighborhood.

They still need to tie it to you. If you've not given it a shred of personal information, it has to be fingerprinting via surreptitious audio/video recording, or else by obtaining the purchase info from the retailer (like the name and billing address from your credit card) and matching that by serial number (which would have to be recorded during purchase).

I wouldn't be surprised if they did audio fingerprinting. But even if they don't, the third parties who are buying the data can easily re-identify the users by doing data fusion with other sources (smartphone location data from other vendors)

Did Gamers Nexus not precisely demonstrate that audio is captured by TVs?

Not that I have any evidence it's happening, but it'd be more likely for TV manufacturers to partner with ISPs that offer public WiFi using the access points they rent to their customers.

No but things like Amazon sidewalk exist

The low bandwidth always on kindle modems could also be feasibly built into TVs for telemetry, and may be cheaper than the money they could get from selling the data.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was thinking reading people who think you need to do more than simply never connect it to your wifi.

it's not just your wifi you have to worry about. neighbour can have insecure wifi. or deliberately open ones like coffee shops, free municipal hotspots, etc.

This is trivial to test yet not a single person claiming TVs will connect to open networks all on their own has ever provided a shred of evidence of it actually happening.

That sounds like a TV manufacturer is going to be having one hell of a lawsuit if they're breaking into other peoples wifi networks.

Wasn't this exactly what happened in the LG exposé that just came out? It connects to any WiFi network it can, your will be damned.

No, no it wasn't.

My xfinity modem helpfully defaults to providing an open network that others can connect to. If I didn't know to disable this, it would be the first network it could find.

There are available IoT networks it could use, though I don't think all of them run over Wifi.

Yeah and if it was using LoRa or something similar, ot could reach hundreds of meters through buildings or many kilometers in open space, with a very small antenna. If they built in a big antenna into the TV chassis itself, it cpuld get quite and insane reach but it would be more expensive.

What it would connect to ? To other TVs (comfortably connected to mains power) forming a mesh network. A bunch of Internet connected gateways planted by the manufacturers would capture the data from the network.

MeshCore and MeshTastic have demonstrated community networks like this, so I would not put it past TV manufacturers to try missuse the same idea.

Honest question. Do projectors also suffer?

The one we have is even worse. It won't really work well outside of things like airplay or chromecast, and those require wifi. It was extremely cheap though.

(It has an HDMI port, but it's clearly a second class citizen in the menus, etc. Default to HDMI on power up is intentionally broken. It's also intentionally designed to turn into a brick if we ever lose the remote. At boot, it puts a screen up saying to press a button on the remote if you want it to display anything else, and that screen never times out. If you plug in an HDMI input, it says "HDMI input detected; press OK.". There's no "OK" button on the projector itself. You have to press the OK button on the remote.)

Not from privacy issues, but all the typical ones from projectors never went anywhere: low brightness, high heat, low maximum operating lifetime, fan noise, and hard to set up (impossible in some places).

I don't think this apply to most UST projector nowadays. I mean, operating lifetime is probably still an issue, fan noise while higher than a TV (which doesn't have it) is not an issue anymore, heat.. well, come close to my (old, ok) OLED LG TV and you can still warm your hands (although not like the previous plasma one I had, that's true). For the setup I don't know exactly but there are online shops that gives you the 1st setup for free (at the cost of doing the unboxing for you). Also probably nowadays with an LLM almost anybody that care enough to research and buy a projector can do it, I guess.

Yes, I want to buy a projector this Black Friday (Hisense PX3-Pro).

Faar less. A larger fraction of projectors remain dumb HDMI to light converters. Tis been my own plan if i settle on wanting a tv.

If it has any kind of in-built smart TV style OS - then yes.

HDMI has an Ethernet channel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HEC

Any chance the TV can phone home via that? One would have to make sure the HDMI cable physically doesn't have the Ethernet pairs, or set the trusted box to filter the traffic.

The HDMI standard defines an Ethernet channel as an optional feature. Approximately zero consumer products have ever implemented it. There's no need to worry about an unsuspecting consumer having supporting devices at both ends of the cable.

And the channel they allocated for it was reallocated with different encoding for eARC.

I don’t know of any consumer laptops or tv boxes like shield/Apple TV that implement that so that. It’s basically a non-issue unless it’s implemented on the HDMI devices.

If you use something you can control, like a Linux box, this isn't an issue. Even if the device did get added, and then udev or network manager auto configured, a firewall script should protect you.

> disconnect the wireless radio from the main board

Can you explain why you can't just not give the TV your Wi-Fi password?

Or are we worried about the case when the TV did have Wi-Fi (due to it being mandatory for some initial setup, say), but we don't trust that "Forget Network" and "Wi-Fi off" are actually honored?

Suppose the device surreptitiously reconnects to Wi-Fi in spite of being told to forget it. You may be able to block it in your router and failing that, change the access point password.

No?

Xfinity runs an open WiFi for its customers. If you instead their gateway and don’t change anything (which is 99% of users) any Xfinity customer can get online. Several of my neighbors have them, and you can’t walk around in my commercial district without seeing the “Xfinity WiFi” SSID. It would be smart for TV mfrs to do a deal with Xfinity and their equivalents world wide in order to sell viewer data to advertisers and receive “fresh” ads, even if the TVs are excluded from the residential network.

>It would be smart for TV mfrs to do a deal with Xfinity and their equivalents world wide in order to sell viewer data to advertisers and receive “fresh” ads, even if the TVs are excluded from the residential network.

Doesn't exactly sound like a thing to be that concerned about if you never plug in your TV. If you buy a TV right now and never plug it in, how would it know about any future deal with Xfinity to connect to its open networks? And if it had a feature to connect to random open Wi-Fi networks right now, that wouldn't be hard to prove. My LG has never shown up in my Wi-Fi client list despite my open guest Wi-Fi. You can even test it by naming your guest network "Xfinity WiFi".

Taking apart your TV and pulling out the wireless radio sounds like absolute overkill to me. Feel free to do it if it makes you feel better. It will definitely not allow it to send data (over Wi-Fi) under any circumstance. I'm just not convinced that the alternative is that much riskier.

This is actually so very doable in US, cutting deal with those like XFinity.

But if the TV manufacturer is smart in their spying game, they could also be probing for any public SSIDs to connect to when no local internet access is setup.

Why make it so complicated? Just include an IoT cell modem with an esim.

If the collected data are worth it, sure. But the BOM of these things is stripped down as low as they can get it. A buck would be a big deal.

They don't have to cut direct with the operator. They can go up a little higher in the chain to a global "wifi offload" operator like Wefi.

https://www.wefi.com/wifi-offload

Then they can just get Passpoint access through a shitton of various endpoints.

So your TV just connects to random wifi networks? That sounds a bit insane.

That example isn't a random wifi network, it's the Xfinity network.

But also, you think tv manufacturers are sane? They have proven that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt, in my opinion.

It doesn't sound insane, actually. Keeping in mind, Windows XP did exactly that for a while until everyone realized, "hey, that's a security issue". I would swear MacOS too, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

People believing even without proof that TVs connect to open WiFi. This would be trivial to prove if true, yet there is no evidence. In addition, it doesn’t make any sense for any of them to bother. 99% of consumers willingly connect their TV to WiFi because they want to use it with the built-in streaming apps. It wouldn’t make any sense for them to waste time capturing the 1% of users most likely to be evade them anyway just to cause a PR and/or legal fiasco.

Our Samsung fridge will mesh network with any Samsung TV specifically to exfiltrate marketing info, at least according to the manual. (The fridge even has marketing surveillance cameras in it).

I assume at some point, appliance manufacturers will start "partnering" with things that actually need WiFi for exfiltration purposes. Phones would be a good place to start.

That way, we'd need to either Faraday cage our friends' phones, not invite them over, or send marketing pervs video feed of our moldy pickles.

We're worried about it connecting to a neighbor's unsecured network or some sort of unpublished mesh capability for exfiltrating your data and downloading ads.

Setup an unprotected network that is isolated and you fully control, see if it connects at all.

That’s what is so insane about this conspiracy theory. It would be trivial to prove yet somehow no one has ever gotten around to it.

Because you can't possibly prove it won't happen in the future...

Easiest rule in security is to just disable unnecessary services. If you are never using the WiFi, you might as well disable the hardware completely

It may be trivial to prove again and again, but it is even more trivial to just disconnect it

To prevent RF transmission.

RF transmission is harmless. It's data privacy we're concerned about.

Seriously, unless you watch with your face a cm from the screen, RF energy is totally insignificant.

It might connect to a neighbor's WiFi if it has no password.

So, I have an Nvidia Shield TV Pro. I dislike how Google had to put ads on the homescreen (ads which are not suitable for my children), and I just checked: it has Android patch level Jan 2026. It is, as of today, Nov 2026. 10 months without patches. So no patch for eMudhra, no patch for Brotli, and you name it.

Other than that, I agree regarding TV, with one caveat: you might want to update the firmware right away, or at some point. The device might need to phone home for that. In order to achieve that, you can put up a temp WLAN AP with your smartphone.

With regards to my STB: I am considering cancelling all my subscription services and simply downloading everything to my NAS. This already runs Jellyfin. Then all I need is a Jellyfin client and HDMI. Perhaps a RPi 4 or RPi 5 would be suffice there.

I use ProjectTV as an alternative launcher. No ads.

Do you mean Projectivy Launcher? Google is giving me no clues about "ProjectTV launcher".

Yes, I use that on my Shield(s) and my Xiaomi android TV boxes (4 in total). It can completely take over the home screen and you can strip everything out of it so it is just a list of exactly what you want to have available.

same

> Use a box of your choice on the other end of the HDMI cables. This is now the box that you trust. (Roku? Shield? Blu-ray? MacBook? PC? Linux? Playstation? XBox? Whatever you want.)

If they choose a Firestick or Roku what's the difference? XD

> disconnect the wireless radio from the main board

Why?

So your idiot brother doesn't connect your spy TV to the WiFi when he comes to visit, instead of using the goddamn Chromecast that is already plugged into it. >:(

This. I've had this happen with relatives who come to visit. It's unkind to tell them "Don't fuck with the TV" or "Ignore the TV if it tells you it wants to connect to something."

They want to be "helpful" and show me they can "work tech" by doing stuff like this. They don't understand that the TV is manipulating them. I don't want to have to explain to them that I'm basically a neurosurgeon and they just tried to impress me by drilling a hole in somebody's head. Because the TV told them to.

Disconnecting the wifi avoids the need for unpleasant conversations.

Happened to elderly relatives. I had it set up so nicely and someone 'helped', and then it seems rude to disconnect what they did.

Dogsitter in my case.

This seems very specific.............you wanna talk about it? /hug-offer

Yours too? Dang.

Even if you never connect the TV to your WiFi network it will constantly scan for public networks and also scan for any devices that will respond. “Off” doesn’t actually mean off anymore. :(

Do you have any specific examples of devices where this has been implemented? Because I've heard this idea thrown around a lot as a hypothetical, but never any concrete evidence that it's been done.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2011/apr/25/goog...

https://theweek.com/tech/wifi-signals-now-tracking-users-at-...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlbjUvkoyBA

https://wigle.net/

And here's the opt-out steps to get Google to stop scanning your Wifi: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632#how_opt_out&z...

None of those links involve smart TVs at all, let alone smart TVs which connect to open wireless networks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9uefFYe6bM

Hypothetical is beside the point. The hardware is there, the software is closed and you can't verify what is really happening, so the potential threat exists.

Connecting to open wireless networks is exactly the sort of behavior that would be trivial to confirm the presence of, if it were actually present. You wouldn't even need any unusual tools - just set up an open access point and see if the TV connects to it.

Why would I care that some device to which I never gave a shred of my personal information of any kind (e.g. not logging it into any online account) found an open public network that I don't use and that has no connection to me?

Sure, I would be disturbed that it's doing that sort of thing in spite of Wi-Fi being explicitly turned off.

What is the threat to me though?

Samsung TVs were literally recording people with microphones and doing voice recognition. Unless you don’t speak in your home, it will have you identified quite quickly.

If we want privacy, should we be buying a TV which has these peripherals? I don't think a TV should have such things, so I would sooner rip out or damage the microphone and camera if I had to get such a TV. The ability to connect to a network could be useful; I'd not mess with it.

Is that even legal? It shouldn't be.

That hasn't mattered since at least 2016. Legality is a suggestion if you are A) a corporation, or B) pedophile fascist.

They have your location, and can detect your interests from what you watch, and fingerprint you. Things like this are pieces of a larger, comprehensive picture of your life.

Also, how do you pay for streaming channels, etc., if you don't give it any information?

The assumption here is that we don't give the TV any personal information; it's just used as a monitor. The content comes from some other device connected to an input (e.g. HDMI1). (That device may raise privacy issues, but we are concerned with the TV).

Without either doing the fingerprinting from surreptitious audio recording in the room that other commenters mention, or else matching the unit serial number to the purchaser (requiring the retailer to leak personal info to the manufacturer), they can't match the unit's location to our identity.

I see. Roku, for example, takes screenshots of the TV N times per second (and sends them home).

Remember that it doesn't take much to identify someone: Gender, birthdate, and (zip code?) uniquely identify ~80% of Americans. From viewing habits, it should be easy to fingerprint someone - Chicago Bears fan; strong technology interest; on your city block; likes AI porn with Lara Croft; home during day Sa, Su, Tu, Th; watches YouTube videos about ...

Because the TV is recording your voice, what you watch and possibly taking pictures, depending on the brand, and it needs a connection to send that information to whoever will pay for it.

Because it's acting with your IP address, so attempts to prevent whatever shady botnet things it gets up to may also interfere with legitimate use by humans on your network.

It can record audio, sometimes video, and fingerprint what you watch on it. Proximity can be enough to identify you.

ACR

I guess for people living in cities where different neighbours move in and out and have open WiFis.

If the devices still scan all the time...

Living on the countryside there is no such problem.

Even ISP routers come with a default password now. I can't remember the last time I found an actual open WiFi.

All the TV manufacturers have to do is make a deal with Xfinity to jump on their AP, and you're toast. I don't know why anybody would defend them or give them any bit of slack on this. Once they figure this out, they will do it.

I’ve heard the TV’s will try to connect to any passwordless, public access point it can reach even without your approval.

While I've certainly heard plenty of theorizing about the possibility of this happening, I have yet to see any conclusive evidence that it has ever been done.

EDIT: What I am referring to here is the specific allegation that smart TVs will connect to open wireless networks without being commanded to do so. It's not a catch-all for any nefarious thing involving TVs or wireless networks.

It's been confirmed in the recent LG scandal.

The denied ones that have yet to be proven?

LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true' (635 points, 2 months ago, 494 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49645480

And that isn't even the same thing either! (This seems to be a recurring theme.) If it were true that LG TVs "spy" on ambient audio, that would certainly be bad, but it wouldn't also establish that the TVs were connecting to open wireless networks to exfiltrate that data.

LG scans the list of nearby networks. It does not automatically connect to any.

No it hasn't.

Many people have "heard" this and repeat it as fact. Not a single one has ever provided a single shred of, trivially testable, evidence.

How many open WiFi networks are there within range of your TV?

Comcast runs a separate "Xfinity WiFi" on all their routers, any Comcast user can connect to it with their credentials. Would they strike a deal with TV manufacturers to let them use it? It would not surprise me.

Pretty sure this is a known offering from Comcast, you just have to talk to the right sales rep... I haven't yet seen any evidence of a TV using it (yet), but hve been told they will sell a company IoT or fleet device access to their wifi endpoints for enough money. I'm not sure it would be cost effective for mass market device surveillance, though.

Also Amazon does this same model with their Sidewalk service, which can run over bluetooth or lora, instead of wifi... and is specifically priced to be usable for large numbers of devices.

Gross. Spectrum does that too. Part of the reason I bring my own. You're right though, the could potentially make a deal.

It would however surprise many.

You still run the risk of a software update doing a tv to tv mesh network. You gotta own the software or remove the radio.

unfortunately ethernet capable hdmi exists

No, it doesn’t in any real sense. Nothing ever implemented it and the channel was reallocated to eARC with different encoding so they couldn’t even co exist.

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