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Comment by account42 | Hacker News Reader

What you are advocating is a race to the bottom for social norms. Instead lashing out at airlines with shitty business practices with your own shitty actions, maybe go to different ones.

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Over the years, I have shopped quite a bit (for me anyway) at Amazon. Up until last year, I never returned a single product (even when the product wasn't upto what the description promised). I haven't (yet) left a single bad review.

Since last year, I have returned a couple of items. I also have drastically reduced shopping at Amazon. I have a lot of patience compared to some people, who abuse Amazon's return policy. That said, there is a limit to anyone's patience.

What I am trying to say is - "maybe go to different ones" might not always be possible. If you are in a hurry to get somewhere (maybe a family member is in the hospital) and a United flight is the only one available, what then? Also, other airlines are not super great either.

Maybe for some household item I can shop around at leisure, but "maybe go to different ones" is not possible all the time. Plus, shopping is tiring and irritating as it is, not everyone wants to do PhD level research for every item they buy

Economy-class airline seats have generally become smaller, particularly in terms of legroom. Seat width has also declined. Why? Obviously higher capacity, greater revenue, segmentation to force upgrades. The situation is even more noticeable because the average American passenger has grown larger. United also has hub dominance in concentrated areas, which leaves one with practically no choice. It is a race to the bottom.

I'm not advocating for a race to the bottom. I think we're at the bottom already, and sadly nothing we can do personally is going to change that.

I don't want people to go out of their way to hurt the companies, purposefully buying tickets they don't want and then refunding them or something. I'm just saying that on the occasion that a mistake happens, you shouldn't feel bad about using whatever legal/procedural recourse available so that you don't have to just eat the cost.

I would go for alternative airlines if there were any. Alas.

If there aren't any airlines you agree with you can stop flying. Ultimately the point is to not spend your money with a company whose business practices you so strongly disagree with. If that's the entire industry then so be it.

What do you mean by "so strongly disagree with"?

I've plainly stated that I don't think they are bad to the point you should go out of your way just to attack them.

I also didn't say they are evil, destroying the world or anything like that. If that's what I thought, then yeah, stopping doing business with them altogether might be the best course of action.

But I simply said that you shouldn't feel bad about making use of recourses made available to you by either the law or the company itself. Which I don't think it's at all incongruent with continuing to use these companies' services.

Maybe I misread your point, I'd assume someone would strongly disagree with a company if the the situation is considered 100% adversarial.

> you can stop flying

Okay, and when all the small mom and pop grocery stores are out of business and there's no place to buy food where the practices aren't shitty, what then? Stop eating? Take all that spare money that we know everyone has laying around (sarcasm, obviously), and buy a plot of land big enough to farm for your own subsistence?

I hope you can take the analogy here and realize how entirely divorced from reality the answer "just stop flying" is.

You're one of those people who fell for voting with your wallet.

What other ones? The supposedly "better" sink just as fast.

"a race to the bottom for social norms" - only your adversaries are allowed to race to the bottom

which airlines are not doing shitty business practices?

some time ago I was thinking that "well, these dark patterns are there, but I am buying from Ryanair so what I expected"

and then I was buying from more upscale company and it had literally the same dark patterns trying to mislead and upsell you

What different ones? Do you live in the US? There are 30ish percent less airlines than there were in 2009 due to consolidations. There are hubs where airlines monopolize entire airports and drive costs up.

Have you ever been to Europe, if you are living in the US? I'd like you to compare costs of flying regionally there compared to here.

Airlines are just another example of oligarchic control - it's incredible that people are expressing sympathy here as if the consumer and the airlines are on equal footing. I hope you enjoy your customized dynamic pricing based on personal information they've collected about you.

Fuck you, airlines.

Airlines are mostly monopolies. There is almost never an exact competing route.

More correct to say, the airlines comprise a 'natural oligopoly'. When capital requirements and other barriers entry or so steep it's natural for the market to produce very few providers. It's not some mad scheme to dominate air travel, though, of course, every carrier would love to enjoy the majority of traffic on the routes they serve.

I live in Chicago. Almost every route has at least 2 airlines (UA/AA). Many have 3 (WN). Some have 4 or 5. Sure maybe the schedule is not exactly the same, and in practice you want to keep to one airline for miles/status but there are very few routes where there is only one direct option and those are mainly international or very small cities. Obviously if you allow one layover then the options explode.

I guess there's are routes (Frankfurt) where technically there are two options but they don't really compete

I don't know the last time I looked for a flight and only had a single airline with routes. There's always better and worse options, but that's to be expected.

It depends very much on your route.

On many routes, especially between continents there is only one option.

no matching literally the same products is distinct from being a monopoly

some specific routes may have de facto monopoly but many, many are not

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