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Comment by maayank | Hacker News Reader

From what I understand from German friends you need a certificate from an "office management" school to do secretarial work. There are internships for the most mundane jobs. Not to attack, but as an outsider it certainly seems to me that Germany (as a generalization and especially outside the software industry) has a title fetish.

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It is not title fetishism, it is quality control and it is very good. This means that when you want to have someone working for you, you can be ensured the person as the adequate formation. I am French, having spent a couple of years now in Germany, some in Denmark and before some times in the US, I can tell you this is wonderful. If you need someone to fix something in your house, you can be sure he knows about it. Not like in the US where the guy was turning steaks at McDo before and just happen to now do plumbing for a small company because "He did well at the interview".

This level of "quality control" is everywhere in the German society.

For the titles themselves, this comes from the general German culture, I heavily recommend "The German Genius" by Peter Watson to understand it a bit more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/18/books/review/Ladd-t.html?p...

http://www.amazon.de/German-Genius-Renaissance-Scientific-Re...

As a customer, sometimes I need the guy who can do a cheap job on an easy task. Sometimes I'll spend more to get someone with a more proven record (i.e. from a rating service or an agency or recommendations) for the more critical tasks.

As a worker, I would like the opportunity to switch careers/find my way without having to take multi-year training courses for every possible job.

Same about products: sometimes all I need is a cheap drill from Walmart and not an expensive Bosch one that would last me a lifetime.

I can't read the articles right now, but I've seen the book in Germany and it did look interesting! :-)

Well if you need real cheap plumbing, you can still hire some eastern European guy and pay him cash. But quality control is your problem then and god forbid if you house is flooded after you come back from a weekend trip...

I live in Germany and I claim that Austria (Germany's neighbouring country) has a title fetish. Austria's title fetish is said to be a relict from Austro-Hungarian Monarchy times that has preserved there until today (although it is declining slowly).

To give an example: on many tombstones on Austrian graveyards the official titles the person had are written; even more strange: for women even the title of their men is implied in the title on their tomb stones (for example: "Oberamtsratsgattin" (I really find this word funny) - a word that cannot really expressed in English for a lack of words for official titles; I'd translate it clumsily with "wife of a man that was a public official with the official title "Oberamtsrat" [a rather respected official title]")

So if you claim Germans have a title fetish, go to Austria. When you come back, you'll consider Germany a really-not-title-obsessed contry.

While your observations are definitely true for the "older" generations (the ones for which many tombstones had to be carved), I'd say that title fetish is fortunately declining quite rapidly.

For example, not so long ago it was common to call wifes of doctors "Frau Doktor", but I've never in my life heard a person < 60 years saying that to the wife of a doctor.

Granted, there are still some strange titles floating around which do not mean much, but they're also fading away quickly. And even though many people may hold a title, my personal observation is that they're shown only very rarely.

So while Austrians had a strong title fetish, I wouldn't say that's neccessarily true anymore. Especially not for the upcoming generations. So don't expect too much title fetish in Austria, you might be disappointed. But be sure to visit the "Zentralfriedhof" in Vienna, it's one of the largest cemeteries in the world and walking through it is a wonderful journey through the past, packed with a plethora of stories.

You do not need a certificate or education to do office work. In fact, the German employment agency specifically points to office work as a type of job where it's easiest to find employment without prior education [1].

It can be difficult to find competitive jobs without a tertiary education (college or apprenticeship). But that has little to do with a title fetish and much with the fact that tertiary education is heavily subsidized (both college and apprenticeships), so the vast majority of Germans have one. Note in particular that German apprenticeships are not internships; they are accredited forms of education in the dual system [2].

Without such an education, you will almost always compete against a person who has it, so even though it may not be strictly needed, it may be difficult to impossible to get a job without one (especially in jobs that do require experience or training).

That's not to say that forms of rent-seeking do not occur within this system, but they generally occur at higher levels of qualification (such as requiring a "Meister" -- not to be confused with a master's degree -- to run certain kinds of businesses).

[1] http://www.arbeitsagentur.de/nn_419854/Navigation/zentral/Ve...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

No. Having a certificate is helpful but not required. For office management and several other jobs you have the choice between attending a specialized school or doing an apprenticeship in conjunction with attending a vocational school [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

That's what I mean, going to school for a secretarial job while not getting paid/having a very limited pay for a part time job in the background. Same with other low tire positions - beginning sales person, etc.

Alternative: gain valuable job experience from day 1 (ok, maybe week 2 after a short local training) and be fired after 3 months if you're unsuccessful and showing no potential. Unheard of in (non-Eastern) Europe.

[/rant] :)

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